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(soft rhythmic music)

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(beeping)

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- [Woman] I\'ve reached a point where it\'s finally time

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to come clean about who I really am.

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- Jamesy!

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- [Woman] I\'m in a relationship

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and I\'ve got a loving family.

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Everything looks perfect.

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- Nice to see you.

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- But it\'s not how it seems.

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When I was born, not even the doctors knew what lay hidden

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below the outer covering.

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Once my parents found out, it was many years before

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they revealed my secret to me.

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And I\'ve pretty much kept it under wraps ever since.

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Well, until now, that is.

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I\'ve got something to say.

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I\'m gonna get it off my chest and

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that is that I\'ve got this condition called

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Androgen insensitivity syndrome,

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which means that I\'m part male and I\'m part female.

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And now I\'m a hermaphrodite.

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(soft peaceful music)

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Our bodies dread all the divide,

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we\'re part god, part goddess.

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But that doesn\'t mean we\'ve got both bits.

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Nowadays, we\'re known as people with intersex,

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or orchids, as we sometimes call each other.

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My kind has always been invisible, almost mythical.

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I\'m on a journey to change that.

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I want to meet other people like me and

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to get my own family to start talking

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after so many years of silence and secrets.

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Bonnie, my sister, is coming along and

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doing some of the camera work.

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We\'ve been into filmmaking ever since our parents

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bought us our first video camera.

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(whistling)

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Okay, you can cut now.

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I wanted to make this film for a long time

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and it has taken a long time to make it because

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it\'s just been little, by little, by little coming out

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and just talking about these things.

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But generally, I sort of feel like this is something

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I have to deal with on a daily basis,

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and just maybe have the camera on my face for this bit.

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- [Bonnie] Okay.

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I just got a great shot.

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- I\'m not sure how making a film with my little sister

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is gonna go.

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I call mom to ask if my parents want to tell

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their side of the story.

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I get the response I was hoping not to hear.

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But is it just because it\'s about this or

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is it just generally?

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That\'s okay, I mean, it\'s fine.

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I just have to admit that I\'m a bit disappointed.

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- I\'m pretty horrified.

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I can understand it, like of course,

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I would\'ve been completely amazed if mom and dad

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had actually turned around and went,

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\"Yes, of course we\'ll go and be in this documentary.\"

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Blah, blah, blah.

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- I don\'t know what it would take to change their mind

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but I don\'t want to bully them either.

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- I sort of was expecting it anyway.

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But you know, you have to break away from

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your parents eventually, really.

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- Do you wanna get a shot of me putting the phone down?

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- Yeah.

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- What are you aiming to get out of this thing?

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Because it doesn\'t seem to me like you\'ve actually

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got really an idea.

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It\'s not up to you to provoke your mother to respond

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to any of this because that\'s very unfair on a person,

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just for a film, just for people,

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just for other people to see.

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- The film is actually doing things that I\'ve never

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been brave enough to do on my own,

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to talk to my parents about my own sort of thing.

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Because there are things that I\'ve wanted to say but

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I\'ve never said them because I didn\'t wanna upset them

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or make them feel bad.

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But the thing is that they\'ve been unsaid.

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- I mean, at the end of the day,

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she\'ll probably be all right.

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She\'ll probably come around.

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It\'s just today, this is the first time you\'ve

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ever really asked her to be in this thing.

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The way your parents are though,

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they\'ll eventually come around, they always do.

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They always so no to everything first and

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then they work it out and they,

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they\'re probably at home right now talking about it.

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- [Narrator] I guess it may take a while

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for mom and dad to open up.

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I know they said no on the phone,

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but I try asking them face to face.

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(mumbles)

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(laughing)

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- Let me up.

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(laughing)

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- [Bonnie] She\'s probably aiming a bloody machine gun at me.

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- I don\'t mind talking to you,

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but I don\'t want it recorded, okay.

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- [Narrator] Why?

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- Because I don\'t like the idea of what you\'re doing, okay,

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with me.

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I mean, if you wanna expose yourself to everybody,

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that\'s fine, but I don\'t wanna be involved.

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- [Narrator] You said you would help me that time--

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- Help is a different--

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- [Narrator] You said you\'d be actually in it.

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- No, I didn\'t say that at all!

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I have never, ever, ever agreed to be

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in any filming shit ever,

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and I don\'t ever want to be.

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- [Narrator] I seemed to have hit a dead end with mom.

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- Maybe there could have been a bit more discussion

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about things like that,

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but at the time, at the time, time just raced away.

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(slow solemn music)

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- Well, we\'ve started a bit later than we\'ve intended

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and 4:00, I don\'t know, it\'s just sort of happening now,

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really, I guess.

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- All right, let\'s go.

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- See ya.

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- See ya, have fun.

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I\'m gonna miss you.

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- That\'s good.

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That\'s not good, but that\'s good in a sense.

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(slow solemn music)

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- We have a long journey ahead

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but I need to start from the very beginning.

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My parents met and fell in love in far Northern Australia

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and got married soon after that.

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They had their lives ahead of them.

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A few years later, I was born, a big headed baby girl.

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I remember a strong sense of joy and

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wonder about the world.

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And with my two younger sisters, Sophie and Bonnie,

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life was one big adventure.

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So, there I was, a happy kid,

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but when I was five years old,

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a discovery was made that changed everything.

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(deep intriguing music)

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We all start life without any defined sex.

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At six to eight weeks, biological triggers set us on

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the path towards male or female.

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But for some of us, something extraordinary happens.

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We could be born with male or female looking genitals,

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or somewhere in between.

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Our sex chromosomes and internal organs that don\'t

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quite match up with how we look externally.

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There are many different types of intersex,

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and there could be as many as one intersex baby

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in every 100.

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For some of us, it\'s picked up at birth.

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Some of us don\'t find out until later, or not at all.

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I didn\'t start puberty until quite late and

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I was painfully aware of the exciting changes

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my girlfriends were going through.

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Do you wanna see something sexy?

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(laughing)

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I had to stand by as my friends grew breasts,

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got their periods, and got attention from boys.

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- [Girl] Look at that pretty face.

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- I went to see mom and I said to her in the backyard

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of her house in Townsville,

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you know, when will I start menstruating.

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And she said that I would basically never

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start menstruating.

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And I was a bit kind of like, why?

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And she said that I didn\'t have a uterus,

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and so therefore, I couldn\'t get pregnant

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and I would never menstruate.

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Mom didn\'t really explain much more than that.

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But she did say it was something that

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I should keep to myself.

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(laughing)

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Slowly, my behavior began to change.

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(exciting fun music)

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There was this time at a sleepover with my gang of girls

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and we tried to each insert a tampon,

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which I think might be a fairly girly right of passage.

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Why don\'t we use one of (mumbles).

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And so, everyone went and tried it and

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they were like, yeah, yeah, it fits, no worries.

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We\'re all good.

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And then I was like, yeah, well, I\'ll try it,

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and I should be right too.

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And then when I went to do it, it didn\'t work.

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It wouldn\'t go in.

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At that point, I was like, whoa,

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there\'s something much, much more wrong with me

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than not being able to menstruate.

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(slow depressing music)

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I didn\'t understand why I was such a freak.

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I lost all interest in school and fell out with my friends.

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I hated my mother, I hated everyone.

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Most of all, I hated myself.

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I\'m depressed.

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I knew that people knew more about me than

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I knew about myself,

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and I had that feeling the whole way along.

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It just made me feel, feel like an alien basically.

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- [Girl] Turn it off.

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- At the end of year 12,

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my parents decided it was time to tell me everything.

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Mom took me for a drive and we parked by the beach.

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We were both looking out at the beach,

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not looking at each other, just sort of staring straight

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ahead and she sort of said,

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you\'ve got this condition

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called testicular feminizing syndrome.

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And basically that means that you have male chromosomes

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and I was just like, oh my god, I\'m a boy.

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I don\'t know, but I was kind of relieved.

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It wasn\'t just some weird thing that happened to me

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and me alone.

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My condition is called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome,

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or AIS.

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There\'s only one of us in every 20,000 male births.

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My chromosomes are male and

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I was born with undescended testes.

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But my body is resistant to male hormones,

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and so I developed as female.

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The doctors said my testes had to be removed

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as there was a small chance that they could

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become cancerous.

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I went in for surgery just before

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my first year of university.

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I was probed because I was such a rare case.

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I was photographed and displayed like a piece of meat.

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And after that point in time,

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I think I just wanted to lose myself for a bit.

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(deep dark music)

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We all have scars from childhood accidents.

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The memory of pain begins to fade with this scar.

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But some scars cut deeper than others.

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When I think about the scars on my body,

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the ones that are still raw are more the psychological

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scars that I live with everyday.

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My self confidence and my sense of completeness.

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I\'m willing to change that, I want to change that.

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Because I wanna get on with my life.

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(soft lighthearted music)

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After my surgery, I told my doctors I wanted to meet

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other people like me.

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They said I should give up on the idea.

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No one would want to out themselves.

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For nearly 10 years, I didn\'t feel confident

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to go looking for others.

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Finally, I did a search on the internet.

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Within seconds, I found other people with exactly

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the same story as me.

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I found that there are lots of types of intersex,

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but all of us seem to have so many experiences in common.

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(soft lighthearted music)

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(dog barking)

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We\'ve only really talked on the phone,

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but I\'m surprised by the level of connection

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Aleyshia and I have.

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Hi, nice to meet you.

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(laughing)

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- (mumbles) at the same time.

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- [Bonnie] What you doing?

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- I reckon we should go and jump in the pool.

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I\'ve been hanging out for you guys to arrive.

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- Okay, cool.

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What do you make about this idea of the documentary

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that I\'m doing, like actually being a little bit more open?

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Because I don\'t know, my parents seem to think I\'m crazy.

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- My parents thought I was crazy since I was five years old.

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(laughing)

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And I first said I wanna be a girl.

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I was born with Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia, or CAH.

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And also true in the sex condition where I was

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actually a combination of male and female.

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The doctors decided they would raise me as male,

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they cut out my cervix, stitched up the vagina

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from an early age and started giving me hormones

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to turn me into a male.

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Growing up I knew the whole time I was female.

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I can remember coming home from school one day and

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saying to mom, \"Hey, mom, am I a hermaphrodite?\"

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And she just changed the subject straight away.

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Eventually I got to be 18,

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stopped taking testosterone injections,

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which were called my vitamin pills,

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and developed breasts.

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From the moment I started developing breasts,

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that was it, that was probably the most exciting

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day of my life.

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My first job was as a stripper in Kings Cross,

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where the (mumbles) used to advertise me as the freak show.

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We\'ve got a real live hermaphrodite on stage.

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I actually heard a doctor say the other day that

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we don\'t exist because as soon as you\'re assigned

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to one gender or the other,

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you\'re no longer intersexed.

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Well, you are intersexed your entire life.

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- [Narrator] Do you wanna explain how you got the scar?

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- Yeah, it was a homophobic bashing.

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Somebody had hit me in the back head with a,

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I believe it was a star picket, an iron bar.

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People have been aggressive to me in the past,

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they still are aggressive to me occasionally now.

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I try and rise above it, try not to get involved

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in the situation, try to walk away from it if I can.

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It\'s made me, I guess, see the ugly side in human nature

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and something that I don\'t want to be.

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So, to my advantage, I guess I\'ve risen above it,

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try and go above and beyond that aggressive behavior.

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It still effects you.

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- [Narrator] I\'m impressed by Aleyshia\'s resilience.

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It seems like she\'s found happiness

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after everything that she\'s been through.

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And hasn\'t had to do it by hiding who she is.

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- Here we go, things of balancing out (mumbles).

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Your perspective are softening.

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You might even find other people more receptive

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and responsive to your ideas.

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It\'s amazing what a difference what a soft approach

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can have on others.

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- [Narrator] Aleyshia\'s generosity is inspiring

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and gives me confidence to keep going.

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(soft peaceful music)

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Discovering that you\'re intersex

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can be an isolating experience.

16:40.180 --> 16:43.040
And because we never talked about it in our family,

16:43.040 --> 16:48.040
I grew up not knowing that my sister Bonnie also has AIS.

16:48.744 --> 16:51.650
(laughing)

16:51.650 --> 16:54.390
Bonnie and I went through the same tough times

16:54.390 --> 16:57.639
during adolescence, but we never shared any of

16:57.639 --> 16:59.860
those experiences.

16:59.860 --> 17:02.917
We were separated by age and the family secret.

17:02.917 --> 17:05.250
(screaming)

17:07.390 --> 17:12.390
Now, as an adult, Bonnie expresses her rage onstage.

17:12.635 --> 17:15.301
(loud grinding)

17:16.540 --> 17:19.740
- Anger\'s kicking it in the intersex world.

17:19.740 --> 17:23.030
Like, I really deal with my anger, in most situations,

17:23.030 --> 17:24.619
like in personal confrontations, stuff like that,

17:24.619 --> 17:25.480
really well.

17:28.398 --> 17:30.720
But all it takes is one trip to a doctor surgery

17:30.720 --> 17:33.070
and treating me in that particular way,

17:33.070 --> 17:37.163
and I\'m furious, furious, just so furious!

17:40.470 --> 17:42.520
- [Narrator] Bonnie found out about our condition

17:42.520 --> 17:45.330
when she was around 11 years old

17:45.330 --> 17:48.563
and had surgery soon after to remove her testes.

17:49.510 --> 17:50.660
I actually remember it.

17:50.660 --> 17:53.660
- The way it exists in my memory is that I went in

17:56.377 --> 17:57.750
for a hernia operation.

17:57.750 --> 17:59.510
But when I actually look back at it,

17:59.510 --> 18:03.730
that\'s what I was told to tell everyone else.

18:03.730 --> 18:06.510
So, obviously I just started believing what I was

18:06.510 --> 18:08.388
saying all the time to people,

18:08.388 --> 18:11.743
that I was having a hernia operation, to fix a hernia.

18:12.750 --> 18:13.830
But no, what they did is they,

18:13.830 --> 18:18.570
like I had my testes removed, yeah.

18:18.570 --> 18:20.100
So, what do they tell me?

18:20.100 --> 18:21.930
I don\'t know, I was quite young and

18:21.930 --> 18:23.820
I think there was a bit of trauma that was

18:23.820 --> 18:25.149
involved with it.

18:25.149 --> 18:29.173
You know, I certainly have a huge scar, physical scar.

18:32.374 --> 18:34.623
I disappeared for one summer.

18:35.980 --> 18:37.820
I remember people asking me about my holiday

18:37.820 --> 18:39.440
and having to make up some lies,

18:39.440 --> 18:41.347
or something like this, and lies.

18:42.360 --> 18:44.570
After being examined and operated on,

18:44.570 --> 18:47.670
they decided that they wanted to bring 10 student nurses

18:47.670 --> 18:50.460
to stare at my fanny whilst they stuck their fingers

18:50.460 --> 18:51.900
in me and stuff like that.

18:51.900 --> 18:54.560
But yeah, I farted and laughed.

18:54.560 --> 18:58.710
And then Dr. McGock went over and washed his hands,

18:58.710 --> 19:01.253
like distastefully, so I think I got my own back.

19:02.288 --> 19:03.866
(rumbling)

19:03.866 --> 19:06.610
(laughing)

19:06.610 --> 19:08.890
I was pretty much told that I had an abnormal body

19:08.890 --> 19:11.620
from a very early age by medical officials

19:11.620 --> 19:13.360
and my parents, and stuff like that, you know.

19:13.360 --> 19:16.820
At the same time, I was offered actually no healthy model

19:16.820 --> 19:20.848
of what a real body, like what is a normal body.

19:20.848 --> 19:24.070
(soft enchanting music)

19:24.070 --> 19:29.070
The idea of normal is influx, nothing in nature is normal.

19:29.290 --> 19:31.627
We\'re a complete example of that.

19:31.627 --> 19:34.710
(fun rhythmic music)

19:37.550 --> 19:39.400
I\'m a bit fucking worried, Phoebe,

19:39.400 --> 19:41.730
that we\'ve gotta drive so far and

19:41.730 --> 19:43.630
film for like 16 hours today.

19:43.630 --> 19:46.453
Like, I think it\'s highly unreasonable.

19:48.100 --> 19:50.800
- When Bonnie and I get in a bad mood,

19:50.800 --> 19:52.873
we basically stonewall each other.

19:54.490 --> 19:58.396
We need to spend time together without any pressure.

19:58.396 --> 20:01.479
(fun rhythmic music)

20:03.422 --> 20:04.500
They\'re like sort of Dorothy shoes but

20:04.500 --> 20:05.883
they\'re much too small.

20:06.780 --> 20:09.840
We both share a love of op shops.

20:09.840 --> 20:12.439
There\'s something cool about looking for treasure

20:12.439 --> 20:14.633
amongst societies rejects.

20:15.670 --> 20:18.740
- What you filming for, for school?

20:18.740 --> 20:21.310
- Yeah, sort of, it\'s sort of a documentary

20:21.310 --> 20:25.620
that we\'re putting together about people with

20:25.620 --> 20:27.455
intersex conditions, actually.

20:27.455 --> 20:28.288
- Ah.

20:28.288 --> 20:29.890
- [Phoebe] Do you know what that is?

20:29.890 --> 20:31.030
- Explain, please.

20:31.030 --> 20:33.550
- People who are born with perhaps both genders,

20:33.550 --> 20:36.570
both male and female in the same bodies,

20:36.570 --> 20:38.520
I guess hermaphrodites is another word.

20:39.720 --> 20:40.600
- Okay, now I understand about that.

20:40.600 --> 20:43.150
- Yeah, it\'s actually a personal story.

20:43.150 --> 20:44.820
It\'s a bit embarrassing to talk about but, anyway.

20:44.820 --> 20:47.600
- I think it\'s good what you\'re doing.

20:47.600 --> 20:48.993
- [Phoebe] Oh, really?

20:48.993 --> 20:49.977
- Yeah.

20:49.977 --> 20:50.981
- [Phoebe] Cool, thank you.

20:50.981 --> 20:52.037
- There should be more young people like you.

20:52.037 --> 20:53.340
Thank you.

20:53.340 --> 20:54.681
- Thank you.

20:54.681 --> 20:58.014
(exciting guitar music)

21:07.470 --> 21:11.410
In a way, it would be easy to stay anonymous.

21:11.410 --> 21:15.640
After all, most people don\'t even know we exist.

21:15.640 --> 21:18.040
But it\'s fun to be more daring,

21:18.040 --> 21:19.723
to stick out from the crowd.

21:23.240 --> 21:24.996
You got the charges?

21:24.996 --> 21:26.001
- [Bonnie] What do you mean?

21:26.001 --> 21:27.289
- [Phoebe] I\'m just wondering if you got them all,

21:27.289 --> 21:28.122
that\'s all.

21:28.122 --> 21:28.973
- [Bonnie] I never touched them.

21:34.730 --> 21:37.810
- [Phoebe] We\'re about to meet with Tony and Andie.

21:37.810 --> 21:38.643
Good day!

21:38.643 --> 21:40.306
- Hey, Phoebe, what\'s up, you fluffy merkin.

21:40.306 --> 21:41.739
(laughing)

21:41.739 --> 21:45.200
- It could be fashioned into one, I suppose.

21:45.200 --> 21:47.860
Andie and Tony are old friends.

21:47.860 --> 21:50.270
I met them online soon after I started

21:50.270 --> 21:52.023
my cyber search for others.

21:52.930 --> 21:56.600
Tony was raised as a girl but he began testosterone

21:56.600 --> 21:58.650
treatment a few years ago.

21:58.650 --> 22:01.590
- For me, it was never about proving that I\'m male.

22:01.590 --> 22:03.500
It was a self discovery.

22:03.500 --> 22:06.500
I wanted to see who I would\'ve actually been

22:06.500 --> 22:08.650
had doctors not interfered with me.

22:08.650 --> 22:11.300
It was quite clear within a couple of months

22:11.300 --> 22:13.710
of starting testosterone treatment that I was

22:13.710 --> 22:15.180
supposed to have been male and

22:15.180 --> 22:18.230
my body would have realized quite a lot naturally

22:18.230 --> 22:19.573
if I had not removed my testes and

22:19.573 --> 22:21.290
did all that sort of thing.

22:21.290 --> 22:23.404
People ask me where I went to school and I still mention,

22:23.404 --> 22:26.010
tell them the name of the local girls school,

22:26.010 --> 22:29.820
and you know, some people might be frightened

22:29.820 --> 22:31.580
to do that sort of thing.

22:31.580 --> 22:34.517
I\'m certainly not, I just explain to people,

22:34.517 --> 22:36.100
they say, \"Isn\'t that a girl school?\"

22:36.100 --> 22:40.120
I say, it is but I was a girl at the time because

22:40.120 --> 22:42.100
I was brought up with this reason, and that sort of thing.

22:42.100 --> 22:46.059
And they\'re like, oh, okay, cool.

22:46.059 --> 22:49.466
(engine revving)

22:49.466 --> 22:50.935
I just love this community so much.

22:50.935 --> 22:53.700
(mumbles) is because of my condition and

22:53.700 --> 22:55.180
the way that it was mistreated,

22:55.180 --> 22:57.090
that I would have to banished and

22:57.090 --> 22:59.000
to hide about my history and all that.

22:59.000 --> 23:01.025
I wasn\'t going to do that.

23:01.025 --> 23:04.853
This is the first house my family owned in Australia.

23:06.180 --> 23:08.773
This one just here, this was my grandmother\'s home.

23:11.110 --> 23:12.450
We always say if it\'s gonna go for sale,

23:12.450 --> 23:14.030
I\'m gonna buy it.

23:14.030 --> 23:16.020
- [Phoebe] I feel like I could learn a few lessons from

23:16.020 --> 23:19.310
Tony on being honest and fearless.

23:19.310 --> 23:22.310
- Tony\'s a really funny guy, he\'s just good fun.

23:22.310 --> 23:24.683
His view is you have to live your own life,

23:25.727 --> 23:27.221
who cares what other people think.

23:27.221 --> 23:28.343
Smoking another cigarette?

23:30.669 --> 23:31.502
Yes.

23:31.502 --> 23:32.440
(laughing)

23:32.440 --> 23:33.720
Stop it.

23:33.720 --> 23:37.050
- [Phoebe] Andie has the same condition as Bonnie and me

23:37.050 --> 23:39.163
but was raised as a boy.

23:40.670 --> 23:44.140
- I found out when I was 30 and I was just pissed off,

23:44.140 --> 23:47.193
I was just so, that\'s the only way to describe it,

23:48.105 --> 23:49.990
I was just angry and really, really pissed off

23:49.990 --> 23:51.423
that I hadn\'t been told.

23:52.261 --> 23:56.313
Tony\'s been a huge influence on me to be who I am.

23:57.326 --> 24:00.159
(fun piano music)

24:04.320 --> 24:08.530
- [Phoebe] To me, Andie and Tony make a very cute pair.

24:08.530 --> 24:11.020
The tall, blonde ex-army major with

24:11.020 --> 24:12.513
the Maltese pocket, Domino.

24:14.130 --> 24:17.000
But Tony assures me they\'re just friends.

24:17.000 --> 24:19.960
He\'s not really for a relationship.

24:19.960 --> 24:21.880
- If it wasn\'t about intimacy,

24:21.880 --> 24:24.961
I probably would\'ve stayed as Antoinette

24:24.961 --> 24:26.902
because Antoinette had a lot more intimate encounters

24:26.902 --> 24:27.817
than Tony has.

24:27.817 --> 24:30.380
But I can\'t even imagine at this stage having

24:30.380 --> 24:33.380
a full on relationship with someone.

24:33.380 --> 24:35.990
I need to be able to be with someone that\'s

24:35.990 --> 24:37.037
comfortable with all of that,

24:37.037 --> 24:40.230
but I\'m not comfortable with all of that, exactly,

24:40.230 --> 24:43.693
yet myself, with what I have and what I don\'t have.

24:44.581 --> 24:48.163
Yeah, so intimacy side of things is, yeah.

24:49.320 --> 24:51.520
Don\'t know if it will ever happen but, yeah,

24:52.648 --> 24:54.222
it\'s awfully a lot I have to deal with.

24:54.222 --> 24:56.600
(slow solemn music)

24:56.600 --> 24:58.110
- [Phoebe] When I was growing up,

24:58.110 --> 25:00.973
the idea of intimacy freaked me out too.

25:06.870 --> 25:09.700
After the surgery, I don\'t think I was ready

25:09.700 --> 25:11.223
to think about my future.

25:12.640 --> 25:15.040
Both Bonnie and I were trying to work out

25:15.040 --> 25:17.390
what had happened to our lives.

25:17.390 --> 25:21.020
- Actually, I was like quite unsure and afraid.

25:21.020 --> 25:26.020
I sort of had my root cut to what was naturally me.

25:28.710 --> 25:31.740
I became like a master of lying,

25:31.740 --> 25:35.323
a master of fantasy and creation of reality.

25:37.200 --> 25:41.563
- I was also searching for ways to escape who I really was.

25:42.427 --> 25:46.327
I was alone, I was very lonely at university in

25:46.327 --> 25:50.163
another city, and I was bulimic.

25:51.020 --> 25:54.424
The people I was meeting, they were into all sorts of

25:54.424 --> 25:56.000
psychedelics, so I was just from some kind of

25:56.000 --> 25:57.663
weird, nightmare place.

25:58.610 --> 26:01.224
- [Bonnie] What was your idea of me at that time?

26:01.224 --> 26:05.810
- I thought, Bonnie, you were very together compared to me,

26:05.810 --> 26:06.643
kind of thing.

26:06.643 --> 26:09.093
I just thought, you know, I couldn\'t remember,

26:10.399 --> 26:12.878
I had a sense that you looked up to me and

26:12.878 --> 26:14.880
I should be a really good example to you,

26:14.880 --> 26:17.610
but my world felt like it was falling apart

26:17.610 --> 26:19.610
whereas you seemed to be okay.

26:19.610 --> 26:23.053
I mean, now I probably would not have said that at all

26:23.053 --> 26:24.700
if I hadn\'t been looking at you as a 13 year old

26:24.700 --> 26:28.320
who was too skinny, out of control.

26:28.320 --> 26:30.500
- [Bonnie] Well, you\'re right, I really did look up to you

26:31.816 --> 26:34.157
and your idea of hell was my idea of heaven.

26:34.157 --> 26:35.246
(laughing)

26:35.246 --> 26:36.930
(exciting rhythmic music)

26:36.930 --> 26:38.700
- [Phoebe] IN some ways it was fun,

26:38.700 --> 26:41.140
I had the chance to have the adolescence

26:42.081 --> 26:43.277
that I thought I\'d missed out on.

26:44.538 --> 26:45.750
(fast rhythmic music)

26:45.750 --> 26:49.473
I was experimenting socially and sexually.

26:51.320 --> 26:54.275
Somehow I stumbled into a few relationships,

26:54.275 --> 26:56.263
but I was terrified.

26:57.620 --> 27:00.580
Maybe I wouldn\'t be able to physically do this,

27:00.580 --> 27:02.490
to have sex.

27:02.490 --> 27:04.920
And all the doctors that saw me seemed

27:04.920 --> 27:06.987
to confirm this as well.

27:06.987 --> 27:09.150
(soft slow music)

27:09.150 --> 27:13.080
With pain, Bonnie and I remember when we prescribed

27:13.080 --> 27:15.710
dilators to lengthen our vaginal canals

27:16.600 --> 27:18.090
with the aid of the tight,

27:18.090 --> 27:20.343
stretchy Bombay Bloomer underwear.

27:21.900 --> 27:25.129
- I actually was extremely envious that you got these

27:25.129 --> 27:27.300
quite fashionable things that you\'re supposed to

27:27.300 --> 27:29.390
shove up your moot to stretch it,

27:29.390 --> 27:31.380
to get you ready for the perspective partner

27:31.380 --> 27:33.650
that would come later on in life.

27:33.650 --> 27:36.689
I had these lovely white, cylindrical,

27:36.689 --> 27:39.663
oh, they looked sort of like this.

27:43.030 --> 27:46.510
Actually incredibly much like this,

27:46.510 --> 27:49.180
only they were sharply speared at the end.

27:49.180 --> 27:52.802
Why give us pieces of plastic that have absolutely

27:52.802 --> 27:55.153
no representation or look nothing like,

27:56.200 --> 27:59.660
you know, anything sexual in order to train us,

27:59.660 --> 28:03.230
in order to act like normal sexual beings.

28:03.230 --> 28:04.063
What do you want me to do,

28:04.063 --> 28:06.080
go around making out with washing machines

28:06.080 --> 28:07.030
and shit like that?

28:10.400 --> 28:11.850
- [Phoebe] After dilation,

28:11.850 --> 28:15.590
I was prepared for sex to be an utter disaster.

28:15.590 --> 28:18.890
I fully expected my lovers to run screaming \"Freak\"

28:18.890 --> 28:19.723
from my boudoir.

28:20.852 --> 28:22.105
(fun playful music)

28:22.105 --> 28:24.970
But when I lost my virginity, I was surprised,

28:24.970 --> 28:26.273
pleasantly surprised.

28:27.580 --> 28:30.603
I tried out a number of partners and arrangements.

28:32.280 --> 28:35.313
But I tended towards serial monogamy.

28:38.601 --> 28:40.851
(laughing)

28:42.580 --> 28:47.200
Finally, I met someone who I felt completely at home with.

28:47.200 --> 28:50.283
(lighthearted music)

28:53.680 --> 28:55.663
James and I took the plunge.

28:56.580 --> 28:59.460
After only six months of knowing each other,

28:59.460 --> 29:01.891
we decided to get married.

29:01.891 --> 29:05.743
It was love and lust at first sight.

29:07.090 --> 29:10.339
- I think within the first two weeks of being together,

29:10.339 --> 29:11.172
we kind of knew.

29:11.172 --> 29:12.320
We were just so into each other and

29:13.490 --> 29:15.390
we\'re shagging every opportunity we can get

29:16.540 --> 29:18.040
really no matter where it was.

29:19.276 --> 29:21.840
- [Phoebe] I didn\'t always tell my whole story

29:21.840 --> 29:24.100
to people I hooked up with.

29:24.100 --> 29:27.573
But with James, I decided to be honest from the start.

29:29.194 --> 29:32.710
- Once I actually found out about what AIS was,

29:32.710 --> 29:35.933
I was confronted with the fact that I thought

29:35.933 --> 29:39.347
I might be gay myself because genetically you\'re a male.

29:39.347 --> 29:41.980
But I think you can fall in love with a person

29:42.873 --> 29:44.720
and whether that person\'s male or female

29:44.720 --> 29:46.400
doesn\'t really matter.

29:46.400 --> 29:49.420
So, I remember thinking if this person has been through

29:50.369 --> 29:54.820
a lot, like this, then they can pretty much handle

29:54.820 --> 29:56.800
most things in life.

29:56.800 --> 29:59.950
Let\'s just go for it and live for what comes.

29:59.950 --> 30:01.800
I think that\'s our philosophy really.

30:02.820 --> 30:04.950
- [Phoebe] Falling in love and marrying James

30:04.950 --> 30:06.013
was a whirlwind.

30:06.900 --> 30:09.423
Something I thought would never happen to me.

30:11.810 --> 30:14.863
But we had to face early on how my condition

30:14.863 --> 30:16.593
would effect our lives together.

30:18.280 --> 30:19.881
- I can remember you said something like,

30:19.881 --> 30:22.350
you know, if we\'re together,

30:22.350 --> 30:24.130
then you should know that I can\'t have children

30:24.130 --> 30:25.280
and we\'d never have children.

30:25.280 --> 30:27.320
And I was thinking at the time,

30:27.320 --> 30:31.157
whoa, this is like, this is going way beyond where

30:33.350 --> 30:38.080
I thought a first night together kind of thing would go.

30:38.080 --> 30:40.617
I\'d never imagined a little me running around.

30:40.617 --> 30:44.743
I\'d always imagined being an uncle or, yeah.

30:46.700 --> 30:50.540
Yeah, so it didn\'t,

30:50.540 --> 30:53.080
I didn\'t fear not having my own children.

30:53.080 --> 30:55.680
It\'s probably more being recently that I\'m thinking

30:55.680 --> 30:57.090
about that sort of stuff more and

30:57.090 --> 30:59.620
I think it\'s okay to provide a good home

30:59.620 --> 31:02.613
to somebody that might not necessarily have one.

31:04.262 --> 31:07.220
(soft slow music)

31:07.220 --> 31:08.840
- James and I start the process of

31:08.840 --> 31:12.020
becoming a family, looking at adoption as our first

31:12.020 --> 31:14.358
option for parenthood.

31:14.358 --> 31:15.350
I was ringing up regarding the invitation

31:15.350 --> 31:16.463
to express interest.

31:17.460 --> 31:21.510
While this is the very early start of a long process,

31:21.510 --> 31:23.513
it\'s one we\'ve begun in earnest.

31:28.880 --> 31:29.713
Done.

31:30.690 --> 31:34.423
For everyone else, having a child seems so easy.

31:35.520 --> 31:37.520
Lots of my friends are pregnant

31:37.520 --> 31:39.713
and I feel a pang of loss watching them.

31:41.170 --> 31:43.607
What\'s it like to have a life inside of you?

31:45.481 --> 31:48.648
(slow peaceful music)

31:50.336 --> 31:52.910
Oh my god, (mumbles)!

31:52.910 --> 31:55.180
But there is still excitement for us.

31:55.180 --> 31:57.620
James rings me with good news.

31:57.620 --> 32:00.640
We\'ve been accepted onto the register to adopt a child.

32:00.640 --> 32:02.529
You read it beforehand, didn\'t you?

32:02.529 --> 32:03.540
(laughing)

32:03.540 --> 32:04.770
He read it beforehand.

32:04.770 --> 32:06.880
He was pretending to open it up.

32:08.060 --> 32:10.129
Oh my god, I just can\'t believe it.

32:10.129 --> 32:13.296
(soft peaceful music)

32:18.870 --> 32:21.830
I\'m happy imagining the future

32:21.830 --> 32:24.943
and I\'m starting to feel comfortable with who I am.

32:26.580 --> 32:29.893
I\'m beginning to understand my sister better too.

32:30.820 --> 32:33.974
It\'s part of the reason I wanted her to come

32:33.974 --> 32:37.263
with me on this trip, to make up for lost time, I suppose.

32:38.380 --> 32:41.300
But covering this many K\'s in the car

32:41.300 --> 32:42.633
is taking its toll.

32:43.640 --> 32:46.253
That\'s disgusting, Bonnie, just turn the fucking camera off.

32:47.328 --> 32:49.590
- [Bonnie] I think that we\'re asses to each other, Phoebe.

32:49.590 --> 32:50.770
- [Phoebe] Huh?

32:50.770 --> 32:52.950
- [Bonnie] Like, I want you in my life as a loving,

32:52.950 --> 32:56.130
supporting human being, not some fucking person

32:56.130 --> 32:58.214
I wanna run away from half the time.

32:58.214 --> 33:00.210
Because you wouldn\'t be on my ass if we weren\'t

33:00.210 --> 33:01.963
doing this together, do you know?

33:03.110 --> 33:05.860
- [Phoebe] No one\'s on your ass though, Bonnie, normally.

33:05.860 --> 33:08.610
- [Bonnie] Well, why do I need someone on my ass?

33:08.610 --> 33:11.001
- [Phoebe] To get your shit together.

33:11.001 --> 33:14.456
- My shit\'s fine, my shit\'s exactly where I left it.

33:14.456 --> 33:17.278
(laughing)

33:17.278 --> 33:18.178
We are such asses.

33:19.140 --> 33:20.870
We\'re never gonna let it die.

33:20.870 --> 33:22.860
We\'re gonna just sit here and keep on bitching about

33:22.860 --> 33:24.650
each other to each other and

33:25.500 --> 33:28.613
trying to find some way out for all of eternity.

33:29.747 --> 33:33.530
This is a really weird sort of life film

33:33.530 --> 33:35.886
mediated existence.

33:35.886 --> 33:37.630
(mumbles) different times with it,

33:37.630 --> 33:39.920
like being behind the camera, in front of the camera,

33:39.920 --> 33:42.120
sister, camera operator professional.

33:42.120 --> 33:43.070
(laughing)

33:43.070 --> 33:46.251
Driving, humorous, not too humorous.

33:46.251 --> 33:49.668
(playful rhythmic music)

33:53.092 --> 33:54.425
This lane sucks.

33:55.610 --> 33:58.010
- [Phoebe] While I\'m on this journey to meet intersex

33:58.010 --> 34:01.510
people, there are family issues I need to confront

34:01.510 --> 34:02.343
on the way.

34:03.514 --> 34:06.363
We\'ve come to see our sister Sophie.

34:07.260 --> 34:08.683
Sophie doesn\'t have AIS.

34:09.690 --> 34:14.690
She can have babies, but she is a carrier of the AIS gene.

34:17.429 --> 34:21.370
As a kid, I always saw Sophie as the bossy one.

34:21.370 --> 34:22.750
The middle child trying to

34:22.750 --> 34:25.013
insert herself in anyway possible.

34:25.911 --> 34:27.362
Sophie, smile for the camera.

34:31.400 --> 34:36.072
Now, Sophie works as a stylist for TV and magazines.

34:38.610 --> 34:40.739
Even though we were close,

34:40.739 --> 34:43.830
I\'m not sure Sophie\'s even aware of what happened

34:43.830 --> 34:46.239
to Bonnie and me as teenagers.

34:46.239 --> 34:48.250
- I think when you and Bonnie found out,

34:48.250 --> 34:51.367
I can remember not being told.

34:51.367 --> 34:55.928
And I think somebody, you had told your friends at school,

34:55.928 --> 34:59.604
some of them, but I didn\'t know and

34:59.604 --> 35:00.470
I actually found out through one of your friends

35:00.470 --> 35:03.190
rather than from you or Bonnie, or mom or dad.

35:03.190 --> 35:07.050
I just remember that we weren\'t allowed to tell anyone,

35:07.050 --> 35:08.600
that it was really secret.

35:08.600 --> 35:10.330
- I guess once the secret was established,

35:10.330 --> 35:14.233
that was then very difficult to break the pattern.

35:14.233 --> 35:16.213
- To break out of it, yeah, yeah, definitely.

35:17.150 --> 35:20.286
- And so, you\'re a carrier of the gene as well.

35:20.286 --> 35:23.255
How did you find that out?

35:23.255 --> 35:25.260
- I don\'t know how old I was but I remember having

35:25.260 --> 35:29.120
the test done and them mom taking me aside

35:29.120 --> 35:31.310
and telling me that I could have children

35:32.650 --> 35:36.076
but I was a carrier and then if I wanted to have,

35:36.076 --> 35:38.870
when I had children one day and if I didn\'t want to pass

35:38.870 --> 35:42.735
on the genetic defect, or whatever she was calling it

35:42.735 --> 35:44.433
at the time, that I could have a test and

35:44.433 --> 35:47.010
then I could choose whether I want to have a child

35:47.010 --> 35:48.537
with AIS or not.

35:49.560 --> 35:51.350
- [Phoebe] Would you have a child with AIS?

35:51.350 --> 35:53.326
- Yeah, yeah, it would be,

35:53.326 --> 35:56.103
they\'re no different to normal people.

35:57.808 --> 35:58.975
Just the same.

36:00.967 --> 36:04.383
- [Phoebe] For me, this conversation is a breakthrough.

36:06.683 --> 36:10.110
I can imagine the idea of passing on our condition

36:10.110 --> 36:13.623
could be a little scarier for anyone considering parenthood.

36:16.542 --> 36:18.792
(laughing)

36:19.742 --> 36:20.575
Oh my god!

36:21.860 --> 36:24.320
When a baby\'s born that\'s different,

36:24.320 --> 36:27.223
parents are faced with an overwhelming decision.

36:28.840 --> 36:32.290
Modern medics have experimented on our bodies

36:32.290 --> 36:35.570
with surgeries and hormones on a quest to make

36:35.570 --> 36:36.723
us all the same.

36:37.890 --> 36:40.750
And these days, with prenatal screening,

36:40.750 --> 36:43.993
some babies with intersex may not be born at all.

36:48.520 --> 36:51.580
I think about mom and dad and the decisions they had

36:51.580 --> 36:53.640
to make when we were kids.

36:53.640 --> 36:57.040
I\'ve realized I can\'t pressure them into talking

36:57.040 --> 36:59.747
but I can still hope.

36:59.747 --> 37:02.580
(deep slow music)

37:05.210 --> 37:07.800
There\'s one more important stop I want to make

37:07.800 --> 37:09.100
while I\'m on this journey.

37:16.417 --> 37:17.682
How are you?

37:17.682 --> 37:19.849
(mumbles)

37:20.768 --> 37:23.248
Yeah, it\'s nice to see you too.

37:23.248 --> 37:24.252
- Long time no see.

37:24.252 --> 37:25.900
- It has been a while, yeah.

37:25.900 --> 37:30.253
Chris is my, he was my photography teacher in high school.

37:30.253 --> 37:32.373
- (mumbles) isn\'t it?

37:32.373 --> 37:34.590
- Yeah, I know and we didn\'t know that there was

37:34.590 --> 37:35.850
that connection, I suppose.

37:35.850 --> 37:40.850
That we both had this intersex condition, I suppose.

37:41.060 --> 37:44.528
- No, I\'m even more surprised to hear that you both are.

37:44.528 --> 37:45.870
- Yeah.

37:45.870 --> 37:48.703
- So, that\'s fantastic, well, join the club.

37:48.703 --> 37:49.670
(laughing)

37:49.670 --> 37:52.503
- Chris was one of my most influential teachers

37:52.503 --> 37:55.850
and it was a total shock for me to find out recently

37:55.850 --> 37:59.460
that he is XXY, also intersex.

37:59.460 --> 38:01.890
I was really nervous coming here, actually.

38:01.890 --> 38:05.230
It\'s the first time I\'ve sort of connected with someone

38:05.230 --> 38:08.500
who has a connection to my past when it was

38:08.500 --> 38:10.223
all a big dark secret.

38:10.223 --> 38:13.120
I was still sort of really finding myself.

38:13.120 --> 38:16.900
- Well, all I remember is basically that you were

38:16.900 --> 38:19.163
a bit of a tear away, which is good.

38:20.235 --> 38:21.720
(laughing)

38:21.720 --> 38:25.263
- I remember Chris as a wild haired free spirit at school.

38:26.120 --> 38:28.130
I don\'t think he made a point of concealing

38:28.130 --> 38:31.200
that he\'s intersex, but I guess we all have sides

38:31.200 --> 38:34.220
to ourselves that not everyone sees.

38:34.220 --> 38:36.230
Now, I\'ve got something to show you.

38:36.230 --> 38:39.840
I was, how should I say, I was looking around,

38:39.840 --> 38:41.890
I tried to find some of the photos I took when

38:41.890 --> 38:43.510
I was doing your course and yeah,

38:43.510 --> 38:45.576
this is a little self portrait I took.

38:45.576 --> 38:46.623
- My goodness.

38:47.994 --> 38:49.440
- I think I was a bit obsessed with that

38:49.440 --> 38:52.540
whole kind of feminine mystique at the time.

38:52.540 --> 38:54.870
And I had this as well, this is actually,

38:54.870 --> 38:56.190
do you remember this?

38:56.190 --> 38:57.460
Do you wanna read it out loud?

38:57.460 --> 38:59.270
- Okay, welcome to the course.

38:59.270 --> 39:01.431
This is the beginning of your life

39:01.431 --> 39:05.410
in a little black box of fascinating illusions

39:05.410 --> 39:07.937
interpreted out of magic moments.

39:07.937 --> 39:12.580
Using the light of day or the flash of electronic

39:12.580 --> 39:16.370
inspiration, the flood of power bent through glass

39:16.370 --> 39:19.960
and poured out like an alchemist upon the acetates

39:19.960 --> 39:23.910
to reveal the elixir of a certain and extraordinary life

39:23.910 --> 39:25.722
waiting your command.

39:25.722 --> 39:27.280
My goodness.

39:27.280 --> 39:30.648
Some of the lecturers thought I was quite mad.

39:30.648 --> 39:32.700
(laughing)

39:32.700 --> 39:35.410
I was brought in a boys boarding school from the age

39:35.410 --> 39:39.192
of eight to my 18th birthday.

39:39.192 --> 39:44.192
I realized that my testes were atrophying

39:44.350 --> 39:47.000
and I was starting to develop perfectly

39:47.000 --> 39:49.053
normal female breasts.

39:51.080 --> 39:54.960
As a result of that, I got mercilessly teased.

39:54.960 --> 39:59.000
I remember one particular occasion where I was

39:59.000 --> 40:02.310
physically picked up by about 10 blokes

40:02.310 --> 40:07.310
and shoved into the latrines and rolled in piss trough.

40:09.690 --> 40:12.892
And I thought, well, if I ever get the courage

40:12.892 --> 40:15.060
to do something about this, I will.

40:15.060 --> 40:20.060
But in those days, it was extremely difficult and,

40:20.600 --> 40:23.868
whoops, I can see myself reflecting back and

40:23.868 --> 40:27.388
I can see the tears rolling in, coming up,

40:27.388 --> 40:28.783
even talking about it.

40:29.650 --> 40:34.650
But what I did is, I ended up having a bilateral

40:35.090 --> 40:37.510
mastectomy, not because I wanted to,

40:37.510 --> 40:41.620
but by the sheer public pressure of being different

40:43.396 --> 40:46.470
and thinking why should someone have to go to those

40:46.470 --> 40:50.310
extremes to fit into society.

40:50.310 --> 40:52.370
No one should have to.

40:52.370 --> 40:54.680
- Your story\'s very poignant for me because

40:55.623 --> 40:58.200
I had the kind of surgery to make more female

40:58.200 --> 40:59.540
in some respects.

40:59.540 --> 41:01.540
I\'m used to being just a little bit cautious,

41:01.540 --> 41:04.323
a little bit, what do I tell this person about myself.

41:05.310 --> 41:07.070
What do you think about this film?

41:07.070 --> 41:11.780
Like, do you think it\'s a mad errand?

41:11.780 --> 41:12.930
- No, why should it be?

41:13.854 --> 41:14.841
- I don\'t know.

41:14.841 --> 41:16.430
- No, of course not.

41:16.430 --> 41:19.510
I think it will achieve something that you could

41:19.510 --> 41:22.120
not have otherwise imagined.

41:22.120 --> 41:24.419
I think it will release you.

41:24.419 --> 41:25.806
- I hope so.

41:25.806 --> 41:28.973
(soft peaceful music)

41:30.290 --> 41:33.260
I can only imagine what it would have been like

41:33.260 --> 41:36.453
to have these kinds of conversations when I was growing up.

41:37.550 --> 41:40.423
Instead of feeling like I was all on my own,

41:41.280 --> 41:43.500
I now know that I need to return home

41:43.500 --> 41:46.523
and face up to those closest to me.

41:51.647 --> 41:53.814
(mumbles)

41:55.462 --> 41:57.180
(yelling)

41:57.180 --> 42:00.070
It\'s good to be home and James and I have

42:00.070 --> 42:01.433
a lot to celebrate.

42:03.400 --> 42:06.326
We start looking for a house to buy.

42:06.326 --> 42:08.014
What do you reckon of the house?

42:08.014 --> 42:10.393
- I think it\'s very nice.

42:10.393 --> 42:13.390
- It\'s a scary step but we need to look

42:13.390 --> 42:16.120
financially secure if we have any chance

42:16.120 --> 42:17.393
of adopting a child.

42:18.517 --> 42:23.517
We\'re now in the assessment stage of the adoption process.

42:23.650 --> 42:25.970
There are lots of hoops to jump through

42:25.970 --> 42:27.840
and it could take years.

42:27.840 --> 42:29.833
But it\'s exciting all the same.

42:34.948 --> 42:37.610
- You think you could get a closeup?

42:37.610 --> 42:41.360
- [Phoebe] Bonnie and I are taking time out from each other

42:41.360 --> 42:42.353
after the trip.

42:43.440 --> 42:45.980
She started seeing a new guy and

42:45.980 --> 42:48.123
it just reminds me how different we are.

42:49.203 --> 42:51.536
(screaming)

42:56.410 --> 42:59.933
Meanwhile, I have some stuff of my own to sort out.

43:01.250 --> 43:04.977
James and I visit his mother to tell her about

43:04.977 --> 43:06.440
the progress of the adoption.

43:06.440 --> 43:09.573
And to reveal why I can\'t have babies.

43:10.990 --> 43:15.030
- Oh, fantastic, absolutely fantastic.

43:15.030 --> 43:18.453
Congratulations, Phoebe, congratulations, James.

43:19.370 --> 43:21.630
- Faye has rheumatoid arthritis,

43:21.630 --> 43:24.683
so James grew up with a mother with a disability.

43:25.520 --> 43:28.782
I think she will understand where I\'m coming from.

43:28.782 --> 43:30.150
It\'s like a sort of genetic condition that was sort

43:30.150 --> 43:32.160
of inherited throughout the family.

43:32.160 --> 43:34.700
It\'s quite complicated to explain but it means

43:35.675 --> 43:38.560
I was chromosomally actually male in the uterus,

43:38.560 --> 43:40.500
sort of thing, but it didn\'t have any effect on my body

43:40.500 --> 43:45.053
so I just grew up as feminine sort of thing.

43:46.740 --> 43:47.749
- Well, you look pretty feminine now.

43:47.749 --> 43:48.897
(laughing)

43:48.897 --> 43:51.310
So, there was no choosing?

43:51.310 --> 43:54.281
- I just looked like a little baby girl when I was born,

43:54.281 --> 43:55.592
sort of thing.

43:55.592 --> 43:57.492
- Well, you\'re too pretty to be a boy.

43:58.570 --> 44:02.100
I know that James always, you know, wanted his own children

44:02.100 --> 44:05.260
but if that was more important to him than you,

44:05.260 --> 44:07.950
then he would never have married you.

44:07.950 --> 44:11.070
I look at it this way, if you can give some poor little

44:11.070 --> 44:15.453
baby a chance at life and if you\'re going to do that,

44:16.302 --> 44:17.560
you have to remember that they are your children,

44:17.560 --> 44:19.670
they\'re not somebody else\'s, they\'re yours,

44:19.670 --> 44:23.320
and you have to do the absolute best that you can do

44:23.320 --> 44:24.580
for that child.

44:24.580 --> 44:27.913
(deep intriguing music)

44:28.938 --> 44:30.723
- [Phoebe] James seems to be acting strange lately.

44:35.810 --> 44:36.710
How are you doing?

44:41.826 --> 44:43.842
- Come on, turn it off.

44:43.842 --> 44:46.306
(mumbles)

44:46.306 --> 44:47.556
(mumbles) Phoebe, please.

44:48.960 --> 44:51.570
There was a meltdown moment, I suppose.

44:51.570 --> 44:54.250
One of the reasons I\'d been aggressive was because

44:55.961 --> 44:58.690
I had been feeling weird about not having my

44:58.690 --> 45:00.970
own biological children.

45:00.970 --> 45:02.830
That was a build up of a whole bunch of stuff

45:02.830 --> 45:05.340
that had been probably coming since the birth

45:05.340 --> 45:08.950
of my sister\'s son, and you\'re not the only one

45:08.950 --> 45:12.470
that goes through crap because you\'ve got a condition.

45:12.470 --> 45:14.460
We\'re having to go through the heaviest moments

45:14.460 --> 45:16.970
of probably our life together,

45:16.970 --> 45:19.720
from the sense that we\'re not having our own children,

45:19.720 --> 45:22.870
but I\'m sure that that, in time,

45:22.870 --> 45:24.953
just become another moment in the past.

45:26.530 --> 45:29.575
I just hope we just keep doing interesting things,

45:29.575 --> 45:31.690
and I think maybe adoption is part of that.

45:31.690 --> 45:34.220
A longterm relationship is generally extraordinary

45:34.220 --> 45:38.993
these days, so that will be kind of cool.

45:41.870 --> 45:46.870
Yeah, I think whatever comes up, just be open to it,

45:47.140 --> 45:48.310
see what happens.

45:49.727 --> 45:53.060
(slow depressing music)

45:55.380 --> 45:59.160
- [Phoebe] A few weeks later, I get a letter from mom.

45:59.160 --> 46:01.443
She says that she\'s willing to talk.

46:03.260 --> 46:04.893
This changes everything.

46:06.780 --> 46:10.050
I ask Bonnie to make the trip north with James and me

46:10.050 --> 46:11.633
for a family reunion.

46:13.760 --> 46:15.788
- Thanks for coming back for me.

46:15.788 --> 46:18.517
(exciting fun music)

46:18.517 --> 46:20.767
(laughing)

46:52.525 --> 46:54.241
- Hello, my darling!

46:54.241 --> 46:56.491
(laughing)

46:57.870 --> 46:59.260
Go away, Phoebe!

46:59.260 --> 47:00.473
- Here\'s to me.

47:01.369 --> 47:04.202
(loud rock music)

47:17.844 --> 47:19.680
- (mumbles) can you attack me with this

47:19.680 --> 47:21.288
while dad takes a photo.

47:21.288 --> 47:24.240
- [Phoebe] I will always love my family

47:24.240 --> 47:28.561
but we really need to talk about one burning subject.

47:28.561 --> 47:30.811
(laughing)

47:31.756 --> 47:34.506
(birds chirping)

47:35.450 --> 47:37.780
This is the house where my parents have lived

47:37.780 --> 47:42.083
for the past 20 years and where I spent my adolescence.

47:43.097 --> 47:47.000
It\'s strange how coming back home as an adult

47:47.000 --> 47:49.693
can bring childhood memories flooding back.

47:51.770 --> 47:56.070
I find some baby stuff that mom as kept hidden away.

47:56.070 --> 47:58.713
It\'s a reminder of why I have come.

48:00.991 --> 48:03.970
Mom\'s finally ready to talk

48:03.970 --> 48:06.623
but I have to pick my moment carefully.

48:07.960 --> 48:10.073
I decide to tackle dad first.

48:12.200 --> 48:14.934
- Well, from the day you were born,

48:14.934 --> 48:16.930
you were very independent.

48:16.930 --> 48:19.930
You were an easy kid to bring up and

48:21.337 --> 48:25.773
yeah, a very self assured, confident.

48:27.471 --> 48:30.200
I suppose your mother told me and

48:30.200 --> 48:32.100
we went to interviews with doctors.

48:32.100 --> 48:34.530
It was just a matter of accepting it.

48:34.530 --> 48:37.930
Yes, I did see a change after you\'d had the surgery.

48:37.930 --> 48:42.930
And yeah, so I would, I could see that your outgoing

48:46.330 --> 48:49.653
personality had changed somewhat.

48:51.150 --> 48:53.700
Whether I was happy or not, I just had to go ahead.

48:54.823 --> 48:58.740
It had to be done, but you know,

48:58.740 --> 49:00.590
there\'s only so much a parent can do.

49:01.778 --> 49:02.920
I mean, you\'ll find that when you become a parent,

49:02.920 --> 49:04.643
there\'s only so much you can do.

49:06.980 --> 49:09.790
I don\'t have any regrets.

49:09.790 --> 49:11.784
I did pretty good actually.

49:11.784 --> 49:14.450
(laughing)

49:14.450 --> 49:17.620
- [Phoebe] I think dad\'s relieved the heat\'s off him,

49:17.620 --> 49:19.353
but now it\'s mom\'s turn.

49:23.090 --> 49:26.870
So, why did you decide to take part in this interview

49:26.870 --> 49:28.300
at this stage?

49:28.300 --> 49:29.627
- Well, I\'ve just...

49:32.970 --> 49:35.929
Rethought a few things in my life and

49:35.929 --> 49:36.960
I just thought, well, if it\'s gonna help you,

49:36.960 --> 49:37.793
I\'ll help you.

49:38.709 --> 49:39.990
I don\'t want to do it.

49:39.990 --> 49:42.140
I don\'t get any pleasure out of doing it,

49:42.140 --> 49:43.790
and it\'s certainly--

49:43.790 --> 49:44.760
- [Bonnie] Doing what?

49:44.760 --> 49:45.960
- Having this interview.

49:47.077 --> 49:50.720
I don\'t particularly wanna be involved with this documentary

49:50.720 --> 49:55.720
but I just, just doing it to help you because

49:55.922 --> 50:00.393
I thought, you know, this would be what you wanted me to do.

50:02.428 --> 50:04.213
Was it?

50:04.213 --> 50:06.463
(laughing)

50:08.352 --> 50:11.350
- [Phoebe] Okay, well that makes me feel a bit guilty.

50:11.350 --> 50:13.083
- Well, fucking aye, it\'s time you had a bit of guilt,

50:13.083 --> 50:14.928
I\'ve had it all.

50:14.928 --> 50:17.770
(laughing)

50:17.770 --> 50:21.827
When you were very young, you had a hernia

50:21.827 --> 50:24.670
and then later on, after Bonnie was born,

50:24.670 --> 50:26.870
she had a similar hernia.

50:26.870 --> 50:28.850
And when the doctors repaired that one,

50:28.850 --> 50:32.093
they discovered that she had AIS.

50:32.950 --> 50:35.700
And then they tested you and found that you had it too.

50:37.794 --> 50:40.560
I was probably a little bit angry that I hadn\'t

50:40.560 --> 50:43.870
been aware that there was a possibility that I had

50:43.870 --> 50:46.803
a condition that I could pass on.

50:48.408 --> 50:50.070
And then later to find that I\'ve actually passed

50:50.070 --> 50:52.820
that condition onto all three of my children was a bit,

50:56.590 --> 50:59.555
what\'s a word I can use to describe it,

50:59.555 --> 51:03.370
well, I felt rather guilty, I suppose.

51:03.370 --> 51:05.350
I mean, I don\'t know whether things have changed,

51:05.350 --> 51:10.350
but I have to say that I actually quite resented

51:10.939 --> 51:15.939
the medical profession in that there was very little

51:18.510 --> 51:21.913
knowledge passed on, or very little information given.

51:24.639 --> 51:28.250
I do tend to think that they did say that it would

51:28.250 --> 51:30.070
be something that you wouldn\'t understand until

51:30.070 --> 51:31.380
you were a bit older.

51:31.380 --> 51:35.143
That\'s probably why I waited a bit longer to tell you.

51:36.630 --> 51:40.993
I mean, nobody sets out to deliberately do things

51:40.993 --> 51:45.690
that are considered bad parenting.

51:45.690 --> 51:49.308
But in spite of your meddling mother,

51:49.308 --> 51:51.700
you\'ve managed to pull through very nicely

51:51.700 --> 51:54.753
and I\'m very proud that you\'re my daughter.

51:57.142 --> 52:02.010
(fun rhythmic music) (laughing)

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- No, no, no.

52:03.804 --> 52:05.823
(mumbles)

52:05.823 --> 52:07.720
- [Phoebe] It\'s only been a short visit,

52:07.720 --> 52:09.820
and I\'m not sure if mom and dad realize

52:09.820 --> 52:11.603
how much it has meant to me,

52:12.550 --> 52:16.610
but it\'s good to know something will never change.

52:16.610 --> 52:18.090
- Phoebe, please turn that bloody thing off!

52:18.090 --> 52:19.978
- Mom, just ignore it!

52:19.978 --> 52:20.811
- I can\'t.

52:20.811 --> 52:23.180
- You must become, you must become a bit more detached

52:23.180 --> 52:24.349
from it.

52:24.349 --> 52:26.230
- Look, it\'s your choice, you people chose--

52:26.230 --> 52:27.940
- I didn\'t choose, I\'m just choosing to support Phoebe

52:27.940 --> 52:29.783
in what she wants to do, you know.

52:29.783 --> 52:31.950
(mumbles)

52:34.030 --> 52:36.050
Thanks, thanks for everything.

52:36.050 --> 52:36.883
- Bye.

52:36.883 --> 52:38.165
- Thanks for the childhood.

52:38.165 --> 52:39.797
(laughing)

52:39.797 --> 52:41.074
See ya.

52:41.074 --> 52:42.523
Did you see dad\'s face?

52:42.523 --> 52:45.190
(laughing)

52:45.190 --> 52:48.760
- [Phoebe] I feel lucky to have the family that I have.

52:48.760 --> 52:49.593
Bye!

52:50.770 --> 52:53.840
Somehow, taking this crazy journey and

52:53.840 --> 52:57.030
bringing a camera along with me has made me brave enough

52:57.030 --> 52:59.783
to confront my family and myself.

53:01.400 --> 53:04.170
But I could never have done it without the support

53:04.170 --> 53:05.893
of James and Bonnie.

53:06.850 --> 53:10.272
I guess when we think about what we were like as kids,

53:10.272 --> 53:12.897
I don\'t know what I would say to myself, you know, now,

53:12.897 --> 53:16.090
that I would say about me then just that

53:16.090 --> 53:19.233
don\'t be so tough on yourself.

53:21.040 --> 53:23.010
Don\'t be so tough on mom.

53:23.010 --> 53:26.375
Do you think I let you down or do you think that--

53:26.375 --> 53:29.636
- No, you can\'t be there to whether every bump

53:29.636 --> 53:32.287
that a person could have, do you know what I mean?

53:33.723 --> 53:36.176
And if you did, my muscles would atrophy.

53:36.176 --> 53:39.660
And I\'d be like totally helpless and dependent upon you,

53:39.660 --> 53:42.300
not be a strong individual you need in order

53:42.300 --> 53:45.260
to be a companion or a good friend.

53:45.260 --> 53:47.223
- [Phoebe] So you\'re not angry anymore?

53:50.700 --> 53:52.120
- I\'m everything, man!

53:52.120 --> 53:54.060
(laughing)

53:54.060 --> 53:55.260
Can\'t say I\'m not angry.

53:56.664 --> 53:58.603
You can piss me off if you want to.

53:58.603 --> 54:01.290
You can piss me off if you want to.

54:01.290 --> 54:02.208
- So easy to do.

54:02.208 --> 54:05.220
(laughing)

54:05.220 --> 54:07.513
This feels like a good place to end the film.

54:09.520 --> 54:12.023
But there\'s one more surprise ahead.

54:12.902 --> 54:13.735
(cat meowing)

54:13.735 --> 54:18.560
Okay just a typical Sunday afternoon here with James.

54:18.560 --> 54:23.560
And yeah, not much to report other than playing

54:24.650 --> 54:26.560
with our new baby.

54:26.560 --> 54:30.055
(fun playful music)

54:30.055 --> 54:32.914
- She\'s like, you gonna get me out of here or what, dad?

54:32.914 --> 54:35.463
(exciting fun music)

54:35.463 --> 54:37.260
- [Phoebe] It\'s been a long (mumbles) since

54:37.260 --> 54:39.190
we\'ve registered to adopt,

54:39.190 --> 54:42.473
almost as long as it\'s taken to complete this film.

54:43.336 --> 54:44.169
- Get it, eat it.

54:46.606 --> 54:47.703
Eat it.

54:47.703 --> 54:48.690
- [Phoebe] Now that she\'s here,

54:48.690 --> 54:53.141
like any new parents, we\'re absolutely shitting ourselves.

54:53.141 --> 54:55.308
(yelling)

54:56.180 --> 54:58.383
I can\'t wait to show her the world.

54:59.750 --> 55:02.310
I\'d like her to be proud of who she is and

55:02.310 --> 55:04.163
how she came into our lives.

55:05.870 --> 55:09.450
And from what I can tell about her at this early stage,

55:09.450 --> 55:12.822
I reckon she\'s ready to take the world head on.

55:12.822 --> 55:15.989
(peaceful soft music)