WEBVTT

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- [Detective] You are
at police headquarters

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with two homicide detectives

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talking about a murder that
you\'re incriminated into.

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This is your business.

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Everything you know about
this case is your business.

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Everything.

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Stare me down.

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You ain\'t that tough.

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I just sat here and watched
you cry for five minutes.

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You ain\'t that tough.

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- [Detective] You\'re going down.

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You ain\'t going home tonight.

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- [Detective] You are
not going home tonight.

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I can guarantee that.

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(gentle orchestral music)

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♪ Welcome to the Hotel California ♪

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♪ Such a lovely place ♪

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♪ Such a lovely face ♪

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- Anytime you do an exoneration case

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where there\'s been a false confession,

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it\'s like trying to
ride a tricycle uphill.

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Everybody\'s already against you.

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The person\'s been convicted by a jury.

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The judge thinks he\'s guilty.

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The jury thinks he\'s guilty.

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Now you have to convince
everybody that they\'re wrong

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and the avenues and the ways

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you have to do legally
do this may be gone.

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Sometimes the only possibility we have

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is to find new evidence.

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We basically have to do the
cop\'s job all over again.

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(soft music)

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- Welcome back to Wrongful
Conviction with Jason Flom.

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Today we\'re going to be doing a deep dive

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into an issue that is as fascinating

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as it is terrifying,

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which is the phenomenon
of false confessions.

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And my guest today is gonna
be Jane Fisher-Byrialsen

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who\'s currently working on four cases

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involving false confessions

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and each is fascinating in its own way.

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So, Jane, welcome

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to Wrongful Conviction.
- Thank you.

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Happy to be here.

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- [Jason] And Jane is an attorney

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who is an expert on false confessions

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by virtue of having worked on,

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for a long time now,

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on many cases involving

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these most terrible false
admissions of guilt.

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So Jane, how did you get into this work?

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- I was a public defender in Manhattan

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here in New York City
for about three years

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and we saw a lot of police misconduct.

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You know, we were doing arraignments

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up until 1:00 a.m in the morning

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and you see people beat up

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or people whose cases get dismissed,

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who get no compensation.

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So my husband and I left
the Legal Aid Society

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with the hopes of doing civil rights work.

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- Sending a person to prison

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for a crime they did not commit

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represents the ultimate
miscarriage of justice.

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Too many lives have been devastated

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and we are at a crossroads

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where we don\'t have time.

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Individuals that may be
sitting in prison right now

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praying for a lifeline
that someone hears them

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and sees what they\'re going through.

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And I too want to
express my disappointment

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that the NYPD is not here.

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At times your absence speak
much louder than your presence.

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- My name is Saul Kassin.

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I\'m a distinguished
professor of psychology

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at John Jay College of Criminal Justice.

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Once a false confession is taken,

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the case is closed and
nobody really can tell

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the difference between a good confession

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and one that isn\'t.

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The problem with all of this

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is that there are tactics that can be used

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to get innocent people,

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and I don\'t just mean
vulnerable innocent people,

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I mean people who are
sitting around in this room,

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to confess to crimes they didn\'t commit.

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(gentle orchestral music)

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(police radio chattering)

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- [Jason] So, a case that
you\'re deeply vested in

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is the case of Renay Lynch.

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- [Jane] Yeah.

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- [Jason] Who has been
in prison for 20 years.

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- Renay Lynch was a case we took

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about two and half, no
maybe three years ago now

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and she was accused and convicted

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of killing her landlord in
Buffalo, New York in 1995.

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And it\'s also, obviously,
a false confession case.

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The police had, and
this was big in Buffalo

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because it happened in Amherst

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which is sort of a suburb of Buffalo

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where there had been, you know,
no murders in 20, 30 years.

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So all of a sudden this
murder happens there

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and the police are going crazy trying,

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they can\'t solve it.

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18 months go by and Renay\'s
connection to the victim

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was that it was her landlord

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and so they start looking into Renay

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who, at the time, is
heavily addicted to drugs,

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crack cocaine.

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And she gets arrested for something else

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and they start interrogating her

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and she confesses to killing her landlord

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with this guy Kareem.

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So she says \"Kareem and I
went to my landlord\'s house.

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\"We were gonna rob her.

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\"The robbery goes bad

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\"and Kareem stabs her.\"

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So she\'s essentially
convicted of felony murder

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being present during the
commission of a crime

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and somebody gets killed.

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We took on her case pro bono

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and we started sort of doing, you know,

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just regular Google searches

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on the players names, the
detectives and everything.

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And this TV show \"Women
Behind Bars\" comes up

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and they\'d done an episode on Renay\'s case

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where they\'d gone in the prison

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and interviewed her

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and then interviewed this Joseph LaCorte

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was the cop on the case.

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- Just the way her whole body slumped

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when she decided to give up.

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You just saw.

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It was time to tell the truth.

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(soft music)

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We went through it verbally.

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She gave it to us again in writing

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and then she signed it.

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- I believe her confession
is kind of nonsense.

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There\'s inconsistencies between

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the physical evidence and what she says

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and during the show he says,

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\"Well, I mean, we knew that Kareem Walker

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\"was in Florida at the time of our crime.\"

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- My partner looked into it

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and Kareem was in Florida
at the time of our crime.

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- I\'m like, what?

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Like if they knew Kareem Walker

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was in Florida at the time of the crime

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then Renay\'s confession
can\'t possibly be true

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because she\'s confessing

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to going to rob the landlord with Kareem.

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Had the defense been able to put that on,

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her confession would\'ve made no sense.

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But the defense was never told.

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The whole thing is so full
of holes and so bogus.

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Like, I can\'t put my finger on it

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and say like, you know, this is the thing.

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But I think if we dug in it

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we could find that thing
that could get her out

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because it\'s all,

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it\'s just all of it\'s so,

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it\'s messed up.

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- How did they record this confession?

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- They didn\'t.

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- No, I mean did they make her
write a statement eventually?

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- No, they typed it up
and then read it to her

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and made her sign it.

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- So there is a typed up confession

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is the only version of the confession.

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There\'s no like original
notes they have or something?

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- Well, not that we have.

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- I wonder about that.

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- [Jane] She said she knew
details about the crime scene

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because they showed her photos of it.

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- What details did she know?

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- How the body was lying.

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- But they showed her those photos?

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- Yeah.

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- So we\'d have to find
some kind of new evidence

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that didn\'t exist at
the time of the trial.

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Or not that it didn\'t exist
at the time of the trail

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but it wasn\'t known and it
wasn\'t presented during the trial

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and we\'d have to show that if it had been,

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it could\'ve likely been a
different outcome at the trial.

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- [Jane] Right.

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Which I think we can
but it\'s gonna be hard.

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Our goal is, of course,
to get Renay out of prison

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but it can take a really long time.

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Sometimes many years.

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One of the first things
we do in cases like this

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is to comb through the confession

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and find all the inconsistencies

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to clearly show that
the confession is false.

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- What\'s the whole goal?

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The whole goal is trying to show

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that her confession was
false, nothing makes sense,

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she\'s drugged up at the time,

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they\'re pressuring her.

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We\'re also trying to show

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that this can\'t make sense

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because Kareem was not there.

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Okay, ready?
- Mm-hmm.

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- On Thursday Kareem Walker drove me

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to 90 Longmeadow in Amherst.

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The plan was I was going
to go into the front door

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and Kareem was going to
come up the back door.

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- [Jane] Okay.

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- [Kaitlin] He was going to tie her up

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with a piece of white extension cord

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that he brought with him.

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At that time Kareem hit
Louise in the side of the face

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and Louise fell to the floor

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and kind of went out.

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- [Jane] If that happened,
he would be standing

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punching her here, right?

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- [Kaitlin] When Kareem
hit her in the face

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he knocked the wig off of Louise\'s head.

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The wig landed on the
floor in the kitchen.

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Which is false.
- Well that\'s certainly

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not in the kitchen.

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- He tried to tie Louise up
with the plastic cord he had.

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Then Kareem comes from behind Louise.

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He stabbed her at least twice.

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However, we know it\'s eight times.

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Louise fell to the floor again.

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There was a large amount of blood

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on the floor next to her body.

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- [Jane] So the only thing she gets right

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is that the wig is knocked off.

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- [Kaitlin] That there\'s a plastic cord

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involved in this case is correct.

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- [Jane] And the phone cord
is where the extra DNA is.

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- [Kaitlin] She\'s incorrect
about the number of stabbings.

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- I mean, in a perfect world

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we would be able to find out who did it

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and then she wouldn\'t
have to have a retrial.

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I don\'t really want her to have a retrial.

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\'Cause A, number one,
even if she has a retrial,

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we may not be able to get her out on bail

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and so she\'d have to wait in

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for the case to be retried

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which could take years

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and then she\'d risk losing again.

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(phone ringing)

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- [Miss. Stanley] Thank you for calling

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Bedford Hills Correctional Facility.

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Miss. Stanley.

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- Hi Miss. Stanley.

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It\'s Jane Fisher-Byrialsen,
Renay Lynch\'s attorney.

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I have a call with her this morning.

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- [Miss. Stanley] Yes, yes, hold on.

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- Okay, thanks.

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- [Renay] Hello?

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- Hi.

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- [Renay] Hi there, Jane.

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I am so tired of being in here, Jane,

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and I\'m just like oh my God.

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I\'m trying so hard

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to just be cool and maintain my control.

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I gave myself 25 years to life

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in prison away from my children

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for something that I didn\'t even do

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because I lied.

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I might as well commit suicide.

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- I know it\'s hard.

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- [Renay] Yeah it is, Jane.

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But you know, I\'m looking
forward to my freedom.

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- [Saul] Renay went to trial.

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- She testified but very incoherently.

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She was high during the trial.

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She was not a good witness for herself.

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She recanted right away afterwards

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and her confession was coerced.

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When I talk to people about this

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they\'re like, well I would
never falsely confess.

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- That\'s what people say.

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I\'ve been talking about this for 30 years

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and that\'s the first thing everybody says.

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I get it, but it wouldn\'t happen to me.

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It\'s not one kind of person

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that gives a false confession.

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We are all vulnerable

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under these circumstances
of interrogation.

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We are all vulnerable.

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There have been some trained detectives

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I\'ve spoken to who say,

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\"I can get anybody to
confess to anything.\"

00:12:46.060 --> 00:12:47.240
Many of them will boast

00:12:47.240 --> 00:12:50.480
that they have a 95% confession rate.

00:12:50.480 --> 00:12:52.020
That\'s inconceivable.

00:12:52.020 --> 00:12:54.430
Unless you\'re near perfect

00:12:54.430 --> 00:12:56.440
at identifying the perpetrator,

00:12:56.440 --> 00:13:00.000
that is every suspect you
identify is the perpetrator,

00:13:00.000 --> 00:13:02.600
if you\'ve got a confession
rate at that level,

00:13:02.600 --> 00:13:04.143
you\'re producing a whole
lot of false confessions.

00:13:04.143 --> 00:13:06.380
- I mean, Renay Lynch, when
I talked to her about it

00:13:06.380 --> 00:13:07.697
she explains to me,

00:13:07.697 --> 00:13:09.920
\"I was so shocked that they convicted me.\"

00:13:09.920 --> 00:13:11.780
She says, \"Because there was no evidence.\"

00:13:11.780 --> 00:13:12.613
- Yes.

00:13:12.613 --> 00:13:15.090
A confession is so powerful
it can stand alone.

00:13:15.090 --> 00:13:16.380
So here\'s the jury.

00:13:16.380 --> 00:13:18.060
On the one hand they\'ve
got the confessions.

00:13:18.060 --> 00:13:20.290
On the other hand they\'ve got DNA.

00:13:20.290 --> 00:13:22.250
The confessions trump the DNA.

00:13:22.250 --> 00:13:24.139
It changes everything.

00:13:24.139 --> 00:13:24.972
- Right.

00:13:24.972 --> 00:13:26.900
- It\'s sometimes, I\'ve
likened the final product

00:13:26.900 --> 00:13:29.280
of a confession to a Hollywood production.

00:13:29.280 --> 00:13:32.180
It is scripted by the
police theory of the case.

00:13:32.180 --> 00:13:37.120
It is rehearsed and then
lights, action, camera.

00:13:37.120 --> 00:13:37.953
Ready to go.

00:13:38.800 --> 00:13:40.440
And that\'s what the jury sees.

00:13:40.440 --> 00:13:42.070
They don\'t see the whole production.

00:13:42.070 --> 00:13:43.670
They just see the final.

00:13:43.670 --> 00:13:46.060
I don\'t see how a judge or a jury

00:13:46.060 --> 00:13:48.490
can look past a false confession

00:13:48.490 --> 00:13:50.223
if they don\'t see the process.

00:13:50.223 --> 00:13:52.806
(gentle music)

00:13:58.780 --> 00:14:01.510
- We have a number of documented cases

00:14:01.510 --> 00:14:04.360
in which the person who falsely confessed

00:14:04.360 --> 00:14:06.140
actually came to believe the lie

00:14:06.140 --> 00:14:08.390
that they were told
about their own behavior.

00:14:09.920 --> 00:14:14.920
Which is a whole \'nother
level of insanity, right?

00:14:15.300 --> 00:14:17.540
And some of then believe it

00:14:17.540 --> 00:14:19.170
for a long time afterwards.

00:14:19.170 --> 00:14:20.003
- [Jane] Right.

00:14:35.390 --> 00:14:36.270
- [Nela] You can have a seat right there.

00:14:36.270 --> 00:14:37.170
- [Malthe] There?

00:14:37.170 --> 00:14:38.003
- [Nela] Yeah.

00:14:40.070 --> 00:14:41.867
I\'ll sit right here.

00:14:41.867 --> 00:14:43.617
And she should be in shortly, okay?

00:14:45.288 --> 00:14:47.030
- In the Malthe Thomsen case we had,

00:14:47.030 --> 00:14:49.763
he was a Danish intern who came,

00:14:50.730 --> 00:14:53.160
he was a Danish, he was a college student

00:14:53.160 --> 00:14:54.500
studying to become a teacher

00:14:54.500 --> 00:14:56.800
and he came and interned at IPS

00:14:56.800 --> 00:14:57.860
which is a really, you know,

00:14:57.860 --> 00:15:01.710
like a $20,000 a year
preschool up by the UN

00:15:01.710 --> 00:15:05.290
and it was a co-teacher who accuses Malthe

00:15:05.290 --> 00:15:07.940
of molesting all the kids in the class.

00:15:07.940 --> 00:15:10.130
And he\'s on the cover of the daily news.

00:15:10.130 --> 00:15:13.770
They take his Facebook profile picture

00:15:13.770 --> 00:15:16.690
is him with his niece on his shoulders.

00:15:16.690 --> 00:15:18.840
So they put that on the
cover of the daily news

00:15:18.840 --> 00:15:20.980
and write sex monster.

00:15:20.980 --> 00:15:23.190
And they go arrest him in the morning

00:15:23.190 --> 00:15:24.910
and bring him into the station

00:15:24.910 --> 00:15:27.790
and they have a female
cop interrogate him.

00:15:27.790 --> 00:15:29.247
She tells him, \"Well, you know,

00:15:29.247 --> 00:15:32.330
\"we have video of you
molesting these kids.\"

00:15:32.330 --> 00:15:35.930
Which they had videos but
he\'s not molesting anybody.

00:15:35.930 --> 00:15:38.110
So they had this woman who accused him,

00:15:38.110 --> 00:15:41.480
had taken videos of him in the classroom

00:15:41.480 --> 00:15:43.920
interacting normally with children.

00:15:43.920 --> 00:15:46.370
And so either the cops hadn\'t watched it

00:15:46.370 --> 00:15:49.370
or they had watched it and
were blatantly lying to him

00:15:49.370 --> 00:15:51.390
but there was no video
of him molesting kids.

00:15:51.390 --> 00:15:53.210
But he hears that, right,

00:15:53.210 --> 00:15:54.630
and he thinks holy crap.

00:15:54.630 --> 00:15:57.670
Well, if I\'m on video I
must\'ve done it, right?

00:15:57.670 --> 00:16:00.050
They let him continue to believe this lie

00:16:00.050 --> 00:16:01.760
that he\'s caught red-handed on tape

00:16:01.760 --> 00:16:03.600
molesting these kids.

00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:05.490
And I think that that, you know,

00:16:05.490 --> 00:16:07.810
he started, you could
tell through the whole,

00:16:07.810 --> 00:16:09.340
when they finally are recording him,

00:16:09.340 --> 00:16:11.440
he\'s doubting himself.

00:16:11.440 --> 00:16:14.023
You know, he\'s wondering did I do this?

00:16:16.810 --> 00:16:17.643
- Hi.
- Hey.

00:16:17.643 --> 00:16:18.476
- Hi.

00:16:26.197 --> 00:16:27.460
- Hi.
- Hi.

00:16:27.460 --> 00:16:29.440
- Thanks, you can sit down.

00:16:29.440 --> 00:16:31.220
My name\'s Rachel Ferrari

00:16:31.220 --> 00:16:32.533
and I\'m an assistant district attorney

00:16:32.533 --> 00:16:34.300
here in New York County.

00:16:34.300 --> 00:16:39.250
Mr. Thomsen, can you tell
me why you\'re here today?

00:16:39.250 --> 00:16:40.083
- Yes.

00:16:42.380 --> 00:16:43.950
I\'m here because I\'ve been reported

00:16:43.950 --> 00:16:47.387
by one of my colleagues

00:16:50.090 --> 00:16:53.253
for inappropriate behavior with kids.

00:16:57.160 --> 00:16:58.460
- [Rachel] Okay.

00:16:58.460 --> 00:17:02.320
So, why don\'t you tell
me from the beginning

00:17:02.320 --> 00:17:05.730
how this started and what happened?

00:17:05.730 --> 00:17:07.053
- Yeah, what happened.

00:17:10.323 --> 00:17:12.750
Yeah well as I\'ve been speaking with,

00:17:12.750 --> 00:17:14.526
I can\'t remember.

00:17:14.526 --> 00:17:15.359
- [Rachel] Detective Gomez.

00:17:15.359 --> 00:17:17.537
- Yes, Detective Gomez
about Miss Marieangela

00:17:20.967 --> 00:17:22.373
presented media you had.

00:17:23.320 --> 00:17:25.355
- [Rachel] Miss, sorry,
Miss Marieangela what?

00:17:25.355 --> 00:17:27.584
- Had presented the media.
- Oh, I see.

00:17:27.584 --> 00:17:32.584
- And so I had taken kid\'s
hands during playtime

00:17:35.010 --> 00:17:40.010
and placing it around my
genital area and my shorts and

00:17:47.610 --> 00:17:50.130
found some sort of comfort in that

00:17:50.130 --> 00:17:53.777
or pleasure, what you would call it.

00:17:53.777 --> 00:17:55.868
- [Rachel] And so what, when
you say it gave you pleasure,

00:17:55.868 --> 00:17:56.953
what pleasure are we talking about?

00:17:56.953 --> 00:17:59.053
It was sexual pleasure, wasn\'t it?

00:18:00.670 --> 00:18:03.570
- Yeah, it would have to be.

00:18:03.570 --> 00:18:06.373
But I don\'t know, again,

00:18:07.980 --> 00:18:11.410
my memory of everything is not that vivid.

00:18:11.410 --> 00:18:13.140
- [Rachel] And did you
write out this statement?

00:18:13.140 --> 00:18:13.973
- I did.

00:18:13.973 --> 00:18:14.806
- [Rachel] That\'s your handwriting?

00:18:14.806 --> 00:18:15.639
- It is.

00:18:15.639 --> 00:18:17.040
- Okay, and just looking it over briefly,

00:18:17.040 --> 00:18:19.390
does it look like it\'s
been changed in any way?

00:18:22.910 --> 00:18:23.743
- No.

00:18:23.743 --> 00:18:25.577
- Okay, and that\'s your
signature at the bottom?

00:18:25.577 --> 00:18:26.410
- It is.

00:18:26.410 --> 00:18:27.650
- Okay, did you write
this out earlier today?

00:18:27.650 --> 00:18:28.483
- Yeah.

00:18:28.483 --> 00:18:30.353
- Okay, I\'m just gonna
show it to the camera.

00:18:36.710 --> 00:18:39.810
- I don\'t even think
people in the US really get

00:18:39.810 --> 00:18:41.680
that the police are allowed to lie to you.

00:18:41.680 --> 00:18:43.180
I think most people would think

00:18:43.180 --> 00:18:45.670
that if I\'m speaking to a police officer

00:18:45.670 --> 00:18:46.610
he\'s telling me the truth.

00:18:46.610 --> 00:18:47.460
But Malthe Thomsen,

00:18:47.460 --> 00:18:49.000
I mean in Denmark it\'s illegal

00:18:49.000 --> 00:18:50.420
for the police to lie to you.

00:18:50.420 --> 00:18:53.130
So he really, it was, you know,

00:18:53.130 --> 00:18:55.950
really extra susceptible
to something like that.

00:18:55.950 --> 00:18:59.170
It took us filing the civil rights suite

00:18:59.170 --> 00:19:01.210
to even get access to these tapes.

00:19:01.210 --> 00:19:03.180
The district attorney
wouldn\'t give it to us

00:19:03.180 --> 00:19:05.385
when the criminal case was pending.

00:19:05.385 --> 00:19:07.070
We moved for a court order to get it.

00:19:07.070 --> 00:19:09.040
The judges wouldn\'t give it to us.

00:19:09.040 --> 00:19:11.310
But they sat on these tapes.

00:19:11.310 --> 00:19:14.440
For eight months he had this
case hanging over his head

00:19:14.440 --> 00:19:15.273
and they knew that there

00:19:15.273 --> 00:19:17.190
was nothing in the tapes, right?

00:19:17.190 --> 00:19:18.580
- [Jason] And the case was basically,

00:19:18.580 --> 00:19:19.810
that was the only
evidence there was, right?

00:19:19.810 --> 00:19:20.643
- Yes.

00:19:20.643 --> 00:19:22.330
Luckily Malthe never got convicted, right.

00:19:22.330 --> 00:19:25.640
We were able to stop it
before that happened.

00:19:25.640 --> 00:19:28.003
But it took, I mean it almost killed him.

00:19:29.118 --> 00:19:31.640
- Judge, on June 11th of this year

00:19:31.640 --> 00:19:34.320
very serious allegations of sexual abuse

00:19:34.320 --> 00:19:36.050
involving very young children

00:19:36.050 --> 00:19:39.510
were brought to the attention
of the NYPD and this office.

00:19:39.510 --> 00:19:42.600
It is the duty of the
NYPD Special Victims Squad

00:19:42.600 --> 00:19:44.060
and the Manhattan District Attorney\'s

00:19:44.060 --> 00:19:45.820
Office Child Abuse Unit

00:19:45.820 --> 00:19:47.730
to thoroughly investigate any claims

00:19:47.730 --> 00:19:50.780
involving the physical or
sexual abuse of children.

00:19:50.780 --> 00:19:52.360
Particularly, in this instance,

00:19:52.360 --> 00:19:54.740
where the abuse was alleged at a preschool

00:19:54.740 --> 00:19:56.660
in a classroom with 17 students

00:19:56.660 --> 00:19:58.923
between the ages of
four and five years old.

00:19:59.920 --> 00:20:01.290
Your Honor, at this time

00:20:02.176 --> 00:20:04.670
the people are moving
to dismiss this case.

00:20:04.670 --> 00:20:07.150
After a careful and thorough evaluation

00:20:07.150 --> 00:20:10.640
of the evidence gathered in
our extensive investigation,

00:20:10.640 --> 00:20:12.155
we have determined that we cannot

00:20:12.155 --> 00:20:14.625
prove this case beyond a reasonable doubt.

00:20:14.625 --> 00:20:17.208
(gentle music)

00:20:28.460 --> 00:20:32.127
(speaking foreign language)

00:20:36.386 --> 00:20:40.053
(speaking foreign language)

00:21:00.740 --> 00:21:03.090
- [Jason] In most false confession cases

00:21:03.090 --> 00:21:06.820
they\'re falsely confessing
to an actual crime

00:21:06.820 --> 00:21:07.781
that they didn\'t commit.

00:21:07.781 --> 00:21:08.614
- [Jane] Right.

00:21:08.614 --> 00:21:10.880
- [Jason] In this case he was confessing

00:21:10.880 --> 00:21:12.440
to something that never even happened.

00:21:12.440 --> 00:21:13.400
- [Jane] Right.

00:21:13.400 --> 00:21:16.560
- As you said so poignantly,
his life is ruined

00:21:16.560 --> 00:21:18.530
and he didn\'t even get convicted, right?

00:21:18.530 --> 00:21:20.980
But the trauma of going through

00:21:20.980 --> 00:21:22.520
the jail system in this country,

00:21:22.520 --> 00:21:23.810
it\'s something that we talk about

00:21:23.810 --> 00:21:26.780
because, in America, jails
are worse than prisons.

00:21:26.780 --> 00:21:29.060
- Yeah, much worse.
- Almost without exception.

00:21:29.060 --> 00:21:29.893
- Yep.

00:21:29.893 --> 00:21:31.640
- [Jason] It\'s chaos.

00:21:31.640 --> 00:21:32.800
They\'re breeding grounds

00:21:32.800 --> 00:21:35.970
for violence and rape and disease

00:21:35.970 --> 00:21:37.660
and there\'s, you know,

00:21:37.660 --> 00:21:40.888
the conditions are totally inhumane.

00:21:40.888 --> 00:21:41.721
- Right.

00:21:49.777 --> 00:21:51.396
- Look at that.

00:21:51.396 --> 00:21:54.063
I see green and blue and yellow.

00:21:57.030 --> 00:21:59.280
(giggling)

00:22:04.948 --> 00:22:08.615
(speaking foreign language)

00:22:20.272 --> 00:22:22.939
Can I have my thing that I said?

00:22:23.951 --> 00:22:26.534
(gentle music)

00:23:02.110 --> 00:23:03.230
- Have you ever seen anybody

00:23:03.230 --> 00:23:05.720
use a piece of a phone cord

00:23:05.720 --> 00:23:08.490
to prop up a wig or put in a wig?

00:23:08.490 --> 00:23:10.310
- [Hairdresser] Like just to hold the wig?

00:23:10.310 --> 00:23:12.110
- Or to I don\'t know.

00:23:12.110 --> 00:23:13.140
So I have a case where there\'s

00:23:13.140 --> 00:23:15.720
a piece of phone cord
found inside of a wig.

00:23:15.720 --> 00:23:18.190
Why would you have a phone cord in a wig?

00:23:18.190 --> 00:23:19.834
- I don\'t know.

00:23:19.834 --> 00:23:22.640
That does seem a little strange.

00:23:22.640 --> 00:23:23.473
- Right.

00:23:24.350 --> 00:23:26.440
Could you use it to
just lay it on your head

00:23:26.440 --> 00:23:30.530
to give the wig a little
poof or a little--

00:23:30.530 --> 00:23:35.530
- Well it\'s, wigs are better
if they\'re flat on your head

00:23:35.560 --> 00:23:37.210
because if there is some poofing

00:23:37.210 --> 00:23:40.050
then they hair\'s not gonna
look like it\'s laying right.

00:23:40.050 --> 00:23:40.883
- Oh.

00:23:43.710 --> 00:23:47.003
Like just like a three to
four inches of phone cord.

00:23:48.170 --> 00:23:49.110
- [Hairdresser] Yeah, \'cause it can\'t be

00:23:49.110 --> 00:23:50.453
to attach it to anything.

00:23:52.269 --> 00:23:53.102
- No.

00:24:12.110 --> 00:24:14.210
In Renay\'s case we\'re
trying to get permission

00:24:14.210 --> 00:24:17.190
to test all the old evidence for DNA.

00:24:17.190 --> 00:24:18.980
But to do that we have to collect

00:24:18.980 --> 00:24:20.930
as much information about her innocence

00:24:20.930 --> 00:24:22.263
as we possibly can.

00:24:23.880 --> 00:24:27.260
Go back and interview old witnesses,

00:24:27.260 --> 00:24:31.193
collect documents, go
back to the crime scene.

00:24:32.350 --> 00:24:36.310
- Buffalo is a pretty old city

00:24:36.310 --> 00:24:39.150
and there is a lot of
low income housing there.

00:24:39.150 --> 00:24:40.510
African-American.

00:24:40.510 --> 00:24:43.290
I did talk to many of the people

00:24:43.290 --> 00:24:45.260
that were in Renay\'s life

00:24:45.260 --> 00:24:47.620
that are in their 50\'s and 60\'s now

00:24:47.620 --> 00:24:48.890
and it\'s hard to find them.

00:24:48.890 --> 00:24:52.520
They live in very low income, you know,

00:24:52.520 --> 00:24:55.680
six to 10 people in a house together.

00:24:55.680 --> 00:24:59.780
There is a small amount of
suburban middle class housing.

00:24:59.780 --> 00:25:02.050
That suburban middle class housing area

00:25:02.050 --> 00:25:06.660
is Amherst where the victim
in Renay\'s case was murdered.

00:25:06.660 --> 00:25:08.613
So that\'s the middle class white area.

00:25:14.080 --> 00:25:15.000
- I don\'t know.

00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:16.600
I keep coming back to this thing

00:25:16.600 --> 00:25:19.840
that if the cops knew he was in Florida

00:25:19.840 --> 00:25:22.890
and kept going with the story
that they did it together.

00:25:22.890 --> 00:25:23.723
Like why?

00:25:23.723 --> 00:25:25.010
If they know he\'s in Florida

00:25:25.010 --> 00:25:28.400
why aren\'t they like,
well Renay, you\'re lying?

00:25:28.400 --> 00:25:30.900
You\'re lying to us because
we know he\'s in Florida.

00:25:30.900 --> 00:25:33.180
Why don\'t they ever confront
anybody or say that?

00:25:33.180 --> 00:25:36.160
How can they be permitted to go forward

00:25:36.160 --> 00:25:39.000
with a theory of a case
that they know is not true?

00:25:39.000 --> 00:25:40.300
- [Kaitlin] They made the trial

00:25:40.300 --> 00:25:41.730
basically match her false confession.

00:25:41.730 --> 00:25:43.540
- Right, right.

00:25:43.540 --> 00:25:44.657
- So--

00:25:45.880 --> 00:25:47.250
- That\'s the trickery.

00:25:47.250 --> 00:25:49.820
The only way to convict somebody of this

00:25:49.820 --> 00:25:50.770
was to do it that way.

00:25:50.770 --> 00:25:51.603
- Yes.

00:25:56.530 --> 00:25:58.900
- It just makes me so jaded

00:25:58.900 --> 00:26:03.700
and really disgusted with the
district attorney\'s office

00:26:03.700 --> 00:26:06.183
that I feel like, you know,

00:26:07.520 --> 00:26:09.493
they\'re supposed to be at
the top of the chain, right?

00:26:09.493 --> 00:26:11.120
They\'re supposed to be the ones

00:26:11.120 --> 00:26:12.930
making sure if the cops made mistakes

00:26:12.930 --> 00:26:15.000
or people below the cops made mistakes

00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:17.960
then they\'re the ones who are
responsible for fixing it.

00:26:17.960 --> 00:26:19.870
Why not do DNA testing?

00:26:19.870 --> 00:26:20.703
Like why not?

00:26:20.703 --> 00:26:22.570
I mean, we\'re all, we\'re not infallible.

00:26:22.570 --> 00:26:23.640
We could all make mistakes.

00:26:23.640 --> 00:26:25.130
Why not check?

00:26:25.130 --> 00:26:26.440
I mean, Renay\'s gonna be in prison

00:26:26.440 --> 00:26:27.810
for the rest of her life.

00:26:27.810 --> 00:26:29.490
Why not just check?

00:26:29.490 --> 00:26:31.740
You know, and they can
never answer that question.

00:26:31.740 --> 00:26:33.240
So you just end up in court

00:26:33.240 --> 00:26:36.599
with them opposing your
motions for DNA testing

00:26:36.599 --> 00:26:40.260
and ending up litigating it
instead of working together.

00:26:40.260 --> 00:26:42.560
In Renay\'s case it\'s
especially frustrating

00:26:42.560 --> 00:26:45.310
because, I mean, they certainly believe

00:26:45.310 --> 00:26:47.100
that this was done, not,

00:26:47.100 --> 00:26:49.393
the stabbing was not done by her, right?

00:26:50.900 --> 00:26:52.110
I mean, they\'re basically admitting

00:26:52.110 --> 00:26:53.260
that they have a cold case

00:26:53.260 --> 00:26:54.820
and there\'s a murderer out there

00:26:54.820 --> 00:26:56.930
and they still don\'t wanna do it.

00:26:56.930 --> 00:26:58.360
You know, two people,

00:26:58.360 --> 00:26:59.860
either two people or somebody

00:26:59.860 --> 00:27:02.390
other than Renay committed that crime

00:27:02.390 --> 00:27:04.600
and that person is out and about

00:27:04.600 --> 00:27:06.860
and DNA testing could show who they are

00:27:06.860 --> 00:27:09.493
but they\'re still opposing us.

00:27:28.235 --> 00:27:29.210
- [Michael] There\'s the back door.

00:27:29.210 --> 00:27:30.260
- [Jane] Right, yeah.

00:27:43.740 --> 00:27:44.763
Now here she is.

00:27:46.300 --> 00:27:47.133
See?

00:27:58.420 --> 00:27:59.780
See, the cord is in there.

00:27:59.780 --> 00:28:00.850
- [Michael] Right.

00:28:00.850 --> 00:28:02.970
Would you bring that phone cord in

00:28:02.970 --> 00:28:04.280
to tie somebody up?

00:28:04.280 --> 00:28:05.113
- [Jane] No.

00:28:05.113 --> 00:28:07.010
- [Michael] Not only
did Kareem bring that in

00:28:07.010 --> 00:28:10.930
but he brought it in and
dropped another portion of it

00:28:10.930 --> 00:28:11.763
in the purse.

00:28:11.763 --> 00:28:12.596
- Right.

00:28:12.596 --> 00:28:13.580
- That\'s--
- Yes.

00:28:13.580 --> 00:28:14.530
That\'s absurd.

00:28:14.530 --> 00:28:16.350
I bet what happens here is

00:28:16.350 --> 00:28:18.590
she says he knocks her
out on the kitchen floor

00:28:18.590 --> 00:28:20.660
and they\'re like, mm doesn\'t work.

00:28:20.660 --> 00:28:21.960
Doesn\'t work Renay.

00:28:21.960 --> 00:28:22.910
Not good enough.

00:28:22.910 --> 00:28:24.670
Didn\'t he do it in the living room?

00:28:24.670 --> 00:28:25.503
Look at this photo.

00:28:25.503 --> 00:28:26.820
Look at what is here.

00:28:26.820 --> 00:28:27.653
Oh yeah.

00:28:28.960 --> 00:28:31.210
I mean, I think she\'s on her way

00:28:31.210 --> 00:28:33.883
into the kitchen from the dining room.

00:28:37.000 --> 00:28:38.710
- [Michael] I\'m saying everything happens

00:28:38.710 --> 00:28:40.060
right where she\'s at.

00:28:40.060 --> 00:28:45.053
She\'s absolutely assaulted
and killed right there.

00:28:46.419 --> 00:28:48.780
I mean, my interpretation.

00:28:48.780 --> 00:28:49.613
I\'m not a homicide guy.
- Yes, but then what about

00:28:49.613 --> 00:28:51.720
the missing tooth and the black eye?

00:28:51.720 --> 00:28:53.807
- Right, well--
- Do they do that

00:28:53.807 --> 00:28:55.243
and then start stabbing?

00:28:56.350 --> 00:28:59.000
- [Michael] You know, knocks
her down and kills her.

00:28:59.000 --> 00:29:00.350
- [Jane] And gets, sits on her and just--

00:29:00.350 --> 00:29:03.140
- [Michael] Absolutely,
could happen that quick.

00:29:03.140 --> 00:29:04.270
But it certainly doesn\'t fit

00:29:04.270 --> 00:29:07.373
with Renay\'s confession.
- No.

00:29:10.589 --> 00:29:12.730
- [Michael] I mean, does
that get you anywhere?

00:29:12.730 --> 00:29:14.433
- No, it\'s not good enough.

00:29:17.610 --> 00:29:19.370
But all of it\'s such nonsense.

00:29:19.370 --> 00:29:20.610
Like I sit here and thinking like,

00:29:20.610 --> 00:29:23.890
holy crap, like, somebody
go to prison over this?

00:29:23.890 --> 00:29:25.023
Nothing matches.

00:29:27.410 --> 00:29:30.467
- [Michael] I wanna see
a real police report.

00:29:30.467 --> 00:29:33.070
- That\'s a wishful thinking, Michael.

00:29:33.070 --> 00:29:34.980
I don\'t think there is
a real police report.

00:29:34.980 --> 00:29:37.423
I mean, I just don\'t.

00:29:40.810 --> 00:29:42.310
Maybe they sort of knew

00:29:42.310 --> 00:29:45.540
that Renay\'s confession was not so good

00:29:45.540 --> 00:29:48.880
or not true and so they
didn\'t really want Kareem

00:29:48.880 --> 00:29:51.480
because they didn\'t really
believe that he was there

00:29:52.330 --> 00:29:54.030
or that it happened like that.

00:29:54.030 --> 00:29:56.357
And so if they get him in,

00:29:56.357 --> 00:29:58.483
then they could end up with nobody.

00:29:59.500 --> 00:30:00.700
- [Michael] Back in the day,

00:30:00.700 --> 00:30:03.300
I believe that Amherst was in

00:30:03.300 --> 00:30:06.280
that ranking safest place in America list.

00:30:06.280 --> 00:30:07.113
- [Jane] Oh really?

00:30:07.113 --> 00:30:09.910
So their image was getting tarnished?

00:30:09.910 --> 00:30:11.440
- [Michael] So it became very political.

00:30:11.440 --> 00:30:12.705
- Right.

00:30:12.705 --> 00:30:15.122
(soft music)

00:30:26.190 --> 00:30:28.150
When taking on a case like Renay\'s,

00:30:28.150 --> 00:30:30.820
the danger is always
that the case evidence

00:30:30.820 --> 00:30:33.933
or the crime scene evidence
has not been preserved.

00:30:35.150 --> 00:30:38.900
If there\'s no crime scene
evidence or case evidence,

00:30:38.900 --> 00:30:42.390
then there\'s nothing to DNA test.

00:30:42.390 --> 00:30:44.280
And if there\'s no DNA to test

00:30:44.280 --> 00:30:46.680
it\'s extremely hard to prove

00:30:46.680 --> 00:30:48.130
that your client is innocent.

00:30:57.896 --> 00:30:59.100
- [Michael] Is that the
white purse from the bag?

00:30:59.100 --> 00:31:02.380
- This is from the, no
this from the dining room.

00:31:02.380 --> 00:31:04.730
They\'re all in here, the
purses, it seems like.

00:31:09.355 --> 00:31:10.918
- [Michael] That\'s Renay.

00:31:10.918 --> 00:31:13.251
- [Jane] Yeah, you\'re right.

00:31:18.689 --> 00:31:22.939
- [Michael] It looks like
there\'s a print in there.

00:31:28.750 --> 00:31:31.323
Have you found any reports in it?

00:31:31.323 --> 00:31:32.323
- [Jane] No.

00:31:41.767 --> 00:31:43.770
(phone ringing)

00:31:43.770 --> 00:31:45.200
- [Matt] Ron Smith, this is his assistant.

00:31:45.200 --> 00:31:46.210
How may I help you?

00:31:46.210 --> 00:31:48.180
- Hey Matt, it\'s Jane.

00:31:48.180 --> 00:31:50.563
In terms of the physical evidence,

00:31:52.620 --> 00:31:54.310
everything is there.

00:31:54.310 --> 00:31:58.710
So, there\'s the purses that the theory

00:31:58.710 --> 00:32:00.490
was that it was a robbery gone bad

00:32:00.490 --> 00:32:03.910
and so there was purses
lying next to her body

00:32:04.950 --> 00:32:07.120
and those purses are there.

00:32:07.120 --> 00:32:09.070
It was kept in paper bags

00:32:09.070 --> 00:32:10.610
that some of them have rips

00:32:10.610 --> 00:32:12.920
and they was just shoved.

00:32:12.920 --> 00:32:16.030
It was like, you know, 30, 40 paper bags

00:32:16.030 --> 00:32:17.853
just shoved into boxes.

00:32:19.170 --> 00:32:21.100
So we didn\'t wanna sort of damage

00:32:21.100 --> 00:32:22.160
or do anything to anything.

00:32:22.160 --> 00:32:24.360
So we don\'t know what
the cut out looks like

00:32:24.360 --> 00:32:27.090
or whether or not they swabbed over it.

00:32:27.090 --> 00:32:29.120
There is a photograph of it

00:32:29.120 --> 00:32:31.460
but I\'ll send it to you.

00:32:31.460 --> 00:32:34.400
They sort of like pushed the purse open

00:32:34.400 --> 00:32:38.250
with a bent hanger and
took a photograph into it

00:32:38.250 --> 00:32:42.070
and you can see where this bloody print is

00:32:42.070 --> 00:32:44.520
but you can\'t, I don\'t know if it would

00:32:44.520 --> 00:32:47.571
be good enough for you,
but I\'ll send it to you.

00:32:47.571 --> 00:32:49.988
(soft music)

00:33:44.415 --> 00:33:47.082
(phone ringing)

00:33:49.610 --> 00:33:50.830
Hi Matt, it\'s Jane.

00:33:50.830 --> 00:33:51.790
- [Matt] Hi Jane.

00:33:51.790 --> 00:33:54.060
I have some results for you guys here.

00:33:54.060 --> 00:33:56.350
There were seven bloody prints

00:33:56.350 --> 00:33:57.990
that were suitable for comparison

00:33:57.990 --> 00:34:00.410
and they\'re all excluded

00:34:00.410 --> 00:34:02.512
as having been made my Kareem Walker.

00:34:02.512 --> 00:34:03.903
- [Jane] That\'s what we expected.

00:34:03.903 --> 00:34:04.903
Thanks Matt.

00:34:08.384 --> 00:34:11.134
(sirens wailing)

00:34:37.783 --> 00:34:40.340
You know, the Central Park Jogger case

00:34:40.340 --> 00:34:43.590
was my first interaction
with false confessions.

00:34:43.590 --> 00:34:47.070
Our firm represented Korey
Wise on his civil rights case.

00:34:47.070 --> 00:34:48.360
- [Jason] That\'s a hell of a way to start.

00:34:48.360 --> 00:34:49.480
I mean, you\'re diving right in

00:34:49.480 --> 00:34:51.393
at the deep end there, you know.

00:34:52.260 --> 00:34:54.760
The circumstances at play in that case

00:34:54.760 --> 00:34:57.020
were huge amount of pressure

00:34:57.020 --> 00:34:59.530
on the police and the authorities

00:34:59.530 --> 00:35:02.340
to make arrest and make \'em stick.

00:35:02.340 --> 00:35:03.640
- [News Reporter] Five
teenagers were convicted

00:35:03.640 --> 00:35:07.010
in the infamous Central
Park Jogger case in 1989.

00:35:07.010 --> 00:35:08.870
The rape and beating of a female jogger

00:35:08.870 --> 00:35:10.680
made headlines nationwide.

00:35:10.680 --> 00:35:12.240
The teenagers all confessed

00:35:12.240 --> 00:35:13.890
but later claimed that their confessions

00:35:13.890 --> 00:35:15.050
had been coerced.

00:35:15.050 --> 00:35:17.230
When the actual perpetrator
stepped forward,

00:35:17.230 --> 00:35:19.400
the five men were finally exonerated

00:35:19.400 --> 00:35:21.260
but at that time four of them had spent

00:35:21.260 --> 00:35:22.710
nearly seven years in prison

00:35:22.710 --> 00:35:25.755
and one of them, Korey Wise, 13 years.

00:35:25.755 --> 00:35:28.892
- Have you ever been to San Diego before?

00:35:28.892 --> 00:35:29.725
- No.

00:35:29.725 --> 00:35:30.810
- [Jason] It was one of
the most notorious crimes

00:35:30.810 --> 00:35:31.930
in the history of New York City.

00:35:31.930 --> 00:35:34.700
It was a crime in which a woman

00:35:34.700 --> 00:35:39.310
who was a wealthy upper
east side investment banker

00:35:39.310 --> 00:35:41.690
was out jogging at dusk

00:35:41.690 --> 00:35:44.520
and was dragged into the
woods in Central Park

00:35:44.520 --> 00:35:46.600
and almost beaten to death

00:35:46.600 --> 00:35:51.400
and it was front page
news everyday, everywhere,

00:35:51.400 --> 00:35:53.881
and they were out to get
arrests and they got \'em.

00:35:53.881 --> 00:35:55.048
- [Jane] Yeah.

00:35:58.210 --> 00:36:01.250
- When you get to the false
confessions in that case,

00:36:01.250 --> 00:36:06.150
it was a classic, you know, mismatch.

00:36:06.150 --> 00:36:08.620
They were totally over matched,

00:36:08.620 --> 00:36:11.420
underrepresented, if represented at all.

00:36:11.420 --> 00:36:12.740
I don\'t know, did Korey even have

00:36:12.740 --> 00:36:13.700
anyone in the room with him when he was

00:36:13.700 --> 00:36:14.960
being interrogated?
- No, \'cause he was 16

00:36:14.960 --> 00:36:17.250
so he was considered an adult, sadly.

00:36:17.250 --> 00:36:18.950
And so his mom was not allowed in there

00:36:18.950 --> 00:36:21.060
and they, you know,
hadn\'t given them lawyers.

00:36:21.060 --> 00:36:23.193
They all waived their Miranda rights.

00:36:25.700 --> 00:36:27.854
- [Elizabeth] Could you
please state your full name?

00:36:27.854 --> 00:36:31.573
- [Korey] Kharey Jamel Wise.

00:36:33.260 --> 00:36:34.560
- [Elizabeth] What\'s
your last name, please?

00:36:34.560 --> 00:36:35.393
- Wise.

00:36:35.393 --> 00:36:36.226
- [Elizabeth] Wise.

00:36:36.226 --> 00:36:37.163
Where do you live?

00:36:37.163 --> 00:36:38.880
- 1309 5th Avenue.

00:36:38.880 --> 00:36:39.859
- [Elizabeth] And how old are you?

00:36:39.859 --> 00:36:42.693
- [Korey] 16.

00:36:42.693 --> 00:36:44.443
- [Elizabeth] Look at that picture.

00:36:54.210 --> 00:36:56.408
This is very very serious.

00:36:56.408 --> 00:36:57.300
- I understand.

00:36:57.300 --> 00:36:58.270
- [Elizabeth] This may be murder.

00:36:58.270 --> 00:37:00.370
We don\'t know if this woman is gonna live.

00:37:02.090 --> 00:37:05.330
I wanna know exactly what you saw

00:37:05.330 --> 00:37:07.510
and exactly who said what

00:37:07.510 --> 00:37:09.607
and exactly what you said to people.

00:37:14.700 --> 00:37:15.920
After seeing those pictures,

00:37:15.920 --> 00:37:16.950
I\'m sure that you can see

00:37:16.950 --> 00:37:18.400
how important this case is

00:37:18.400 --> 00:37:20.803
and how important it is
to know what happened.

00:37:28.470 --> 00:37:30.350
- It is hard for people to understand

00:37:30.350 --> 00:37:31.840
how this can happen.

00:37:31.840 --> 00:37:34.050
How they could produce a confession

00:37:34.050 --> 00:37:35.180
to something they didn\'t do

00:37:35.180 --> 00:37:39.010
and it really is a
complicated set of stories.

00:37:39.010 --> 00:37:40.653
There is no one reason.

00:37:41.930 --> 00:37:46.540
Korey Wise confessed to get
out of this bad situation.

00:37:46.540 --> 00:37:50.210
He was under intense
pressure for many many hours.

00:37:50.210 --> 00:37:51.970
He was likely being told

00:37:51.970 --> 00:37:53.790
that others were giving stories

00:37:53.790 --> 00:37:55.650
and that he needed to cooperate

00:37:55.650 --> 00:37:57.230
in order to go home.

00:37:57.230 --> 00:38:00.430
It is very telling in the
Central Park Five case

00:38:00.430 --> 00:38:01.640
that every one of them,

00:38:01.640 --> 00:38:02.920
every one of the boys,

00:38:02.920 --> 00:38:05.110
and every one of the
parents who were present

00:38:05.110 --> 00:38:07.190
were surprised that the boys were arrested

00:38:07.190 --> 00:38:08.880
after their statements.

00:38:08.880 --> 00:38:12.000
Every one of them said \"I
thought I was going home.\"

00:38:12.000 --> 00:38:12.970
Well, you know what?

00:38:12.970 --> 00:38:14.710
That sounds crazy.

00:38:14.710 --> 00:38:18.750
You thought you were gonna
confess to a rape and go home?

00:38:18.750 --> 00:38:21.070
But you know that when false confessors

00:38:21.070 --> 00:38:22.350
are interviewed afterward

00:38:22.350 --> 00:38:24.040
and they\'ve been exonerated

00:38:24.040 --> 00:38:25.870
and the first question
everybody wants to know

00:38:25.870 --> 00:38:28.150
is I don\'t understand,
why did you confess?

00:38:28.150 --> 00:38:29.900
The most typical response

00:38:29.900 --> 00:38:31.960
is because I wanted to go home.

00:38:31.960 --> 00:38:33.670
Innocent people are innocent

00:38:34.690 --> 00:38:38.430
and that means they are
innocent in their own minds.

00:38:38.430 --> 00:38:39.913
They\'ve done nothing wrong.

00:38:42.810 --> 00:38:45.607
Innocent people often say afterwards,

00:38:45.607 --> 00:38:48.467
\"You know, I was so
tired, I was so stressed,

00:38:48.467 --> 00:38:50.877
\"I figured let me sign this confession.

00:38:50.877 --> 00:38:53.600
\"It\'ll all work itself out in the end.\"

00:38:53.600 --> 00:38:55.967
The detectives often say,
\"You know, we have DNA.

00:38:55.967 --> 00:38:58.220
\"We\'re gonna send it to the lab.\"

00:38:58.220 --> 00:38:59.053
Great.

00:38:59.053 --> 00:39:02.270
They think that claiming
they have DNA, that bluff,

00:39:02.270 --> 00:39:05.600
is a way to scare a
criminal into submission.

00:39:05.600 --> 00:39:07.000
It may be.

00:39:07.000 --> 00:39:08.860
But if the person you\'re talking to

00:39:08.860 --> 00:39:11.640
is not the criminal
but an innocent person,

00:39:11.640 --> 00:39:16.240
that bluff becomes a promise
of future exoneration

00:39:16.240 --> 00:39:19.240
which paradoxically makes
it easier to confess.

00:39:19.240 --> 00:39:21.490
They think, great, I\'ll sign now,

00:39:21.490 --> 00:39:24.810
they\'ll see the DNA was not a match,

00:39:24.810 --> 00:39:26.975
and I\'ll go home and it\'ll be done.

00:39:26.975 --> 00:39:28.540
And that\'s kinda the complication

00:39:28.540 --> 00:39:30.110
of how this can come about.

00:39:30.110 --> 00:39:31.290
- [Elizabeth] Let me tell you, Korey,

00:39:31.290 --> 00:39:33.030
we\'re gonna do some tests.

00:39:33.030 --> 00:39:34.900
We\'re gonna take blood samples

00:39:34.900 --> 00:39:35.835
from a lot of different people.

00:39:35.835 --> 00:39:37.140
- Fine with me.

00:39:37.140 --> 00:39:37.973
- [Elizabeth] All right.

00:39:37.973 --> 00:39:40.160
I just want you to know
that if we do that,

00:39:40.160 --> 00:39:41.500
we will probably get an order

00:39:41.500 --> 00:39:42.800
to take a sample from you

00:39:44.400 --> 00:39:46.671
and then we\'ll compare the two tests.

00:39:46.671 --> 00:39:47.579
- I don\'t mind.

00:39:47.579 --> 00:39:49.428
I understand, yeah.

00:39:49.428 --> 00:39:52.070
- [Elizabeth] All right,
because you\'re in a position now

00:39:52.070 --> 00:39:55.120
where if you know that
there\'s gonna be a match,

00:39:55.120 --> 00:39:56.070
that you\'d be better off

00:39:56.070 --> 00:39:57.600
if you tell us about it now.

00:39:57.600 --> 00:39:58.433
- I understand, I understand.

00:39:58.433 --> 00:40:00.130
- [Elizabeth] Instead of saying
something that\'s not true.

00:40:00.130 --> 00:40:01.426
- I understand.

00:40:01.426 --> 00:40:02.509
I understand.

00:40:05.137 --> 00:40:06.870
- [Elizabeth] All right.

00:40:06.870 --> 00:40:09.150
I can appreciate that you\'re scared

00:40:09.150 --> 00:40:13.160
and I can appreciate that
this is a pretty sad case

00:40:15.760 --> 00:40:16.723
but the thing that\'s most important

00:40:16.723 --> 00:40:19.000
is that you tell us exactly what happened

00:40:20.640 --> 00:40:23.400
because if you don\'t tell
us exactly what happened,

00:40:23.400 --> 00:40:25.830
exactly what you saw,
and exactly what you did,

00:40:25.830 --> 00:40:27.363
and exactly who you were with,

00:40:28.280 --> 00:40:30.640
and we find out that you were lying,

00:40:30.640 --> 00:40:34.290
it\'s gonna look pretty bad for you.

00:40:34.290 --> 00:40:36.650
It\'s gonna look like not
only did you do something,

00:40:36.650 --> 00:40:38.880
which maybe doesn\'t turn out to be so bad,

00:40:38.880 --> 00:40:40.480
but that you lied to cover it up

00:40:41.680 --> 00:40:43.421
and then it\'s gonna look a lot worse.

00:40:43.421 --> 00:40:44.488
- I ain\'t cover nothing up.

00:40:44.488 --> 00:40:45.321
- [Elizabeth] Hmm?

00:40:45.321 --> 00:40:46.787
- I ain\'t covered nothing.

00:40:46.787 --> 00:40:47.620
- [Elizabeth] Can you take
your hand away from your mouth?

00:40:47.620 --> 00:40:48.504
I can\'t understand you.

00:40:48.504 --> 00:40:50.164
- I ain\'t cover nothing up.

00:40:50.164 --> 00:40:51.260
I know what I seen.

00:40:51.260 --> 00:40:52.590
- [Elizabeth] Is there
anything you wanna change

00:40:52.590 --> 00:40:53.740
about what you told us?

00:40:56.050 --> 00:40:57.370
All right Korey.

00:40:57.370 --> 00:40:59.360
I don\'t have any more questions for you.

00:40:59.360 --> 00:41:01.460
Is there anything else that you wanna say?

00:41:05.220 --> 00:41:06.053
All right.

00:41:06.053 --> 00:41:08.080
It is now five minutes to 2:00.

00:41:08.080 --> 00:41:09.480
This interview is concluded.

00:41:09.480 --> 00:41:10.313
Thank you.

00:41:12.087 --> 00:41:12.920
- I think I\'m goin\' home.

00:41:12.920 --> 00:41:15.240
I\'m not even supposed to be here.

00:41:15.240 --> 00:41:16.480
So she stopped the camera.

00:41:16.480 --> 00:41:18.540
She called for somebody.

00:41:18.540 --> 00:41:19.963
Korey\'s not cooperating.

00:41:21.390 --> 00:41:24.353
So he saw that my shoe was untied.

00:41:25.714 --> 00:41:28.847
So he said \"Korey, before you
go in there, tie your shoe.\"

00:41:30.520 --> 00:41:31.483
So I\'m doing it.

00:41:33.610 --> 00:41:34.663
So he slapped me.

00:41:37.499 --> 00:41:38.332
I looked at him

00:41:39.760 --> 00:41:42.613
and \'cause she was there when it happen

00:41:42.613 --> 00:41:43.530
and she was just there,

00:41:43.530 --> 00:41:45.210
just looking, just looking my way

00:41:45.210 --> 00:41:49.683
and when he did it, she turned around.

00:41:49.683 --> 00:41:52.750
- [Jane] So when you did
say those things back then,

00:41:52.750 --> 00:41:54.900
like for example, one of the things

00:41:54.900 --> 00:41:55.910
I think they made you say

00:41:55.910 --> 00:41:58.379
was that you cut her on the legs.

00:41:58.379 --> 00:41:59.778
How did you come up with that?

00:41:59.778 --> 00:42:01.834
- I don\'t know.

00:42:01.834 --> 00:42:03.745
It came from nowhere, I don\'t know.

00:42:03.745 --> 00:42:04.631
- [Jane] You just made it up?

00:42:04.631 --> 00:42:09.330
- I don\'t know, it came
from nowhere, I don\'t know.

00:42:09.330 --> 00:42:10.710
- Like why does someone do that, right?

00:42:10.710 --> 00:42:12.450
That\'s what everybody wants to know.

00:42:12.450 --> 00:42:14.650
- Anything is liable
to happen to you there.

00:42:14.650 --> 00:42:16.774
Welcome to the devil\'s playground.

00:42:16.774 --> 00:42:18.440
That\'s the devil\'s playground.

00:42:18.440 --> 00:42:19.510
- All right, because I think most people

00:42:19.510 --> 00:42:20.450
would like to think,

00:42:20.450 --> 00:42:21.723
like I would like to think to myself,

00:42:21.723 --> 00:42:22.983
like I would never do that.

00:42:22.983 --> 00:42:24.840
But did you ever say to yourself,

00:42:24.840 --> 00:42:26.620
damn, why did I tell these lies?

00:42:26.620 --> 00:42:27.453
- No.

00:42:27.453 --> 00:42:28.286
- [Jane] Like why did I tell these lies

00:42:28.286 --> 00:42:29.271
and put myself in it?

00:42:29.271 --> 00:42:32.310
- It really did not exist in
my, it really did not exist.

00:42:32.310 --> 00:42:33.883
I was just hurt.

00:42:34.950 --> 00:42:36.345
The only thing that probably exists

00:42:36.345 --> 00:42:38.850
in my world was just feeling hurt

00:42:38.850 --> 00:42:42.390
that I said something I knew

00:42:42.390 --> 00:42:47.390
from what\'s in my little
mind it wasn\'t real

00:42:47.970 --> 00:42:50.780
but just to go home,

00:42:50.780 --> 00:42:52.253
I got somebody waitin\' on me,

00:42:53.367 --> 00:42:56.943
it wasn\'t gonna come true at all.

00:42:57.980 --> 00:42:59.830
So it just shut my little world down.

00:43:02.740 --> 00:43:04.430
- You just said anything to them

00:43:04.430 --> 00:43:06.570
just to get out of there.
- Right, right.

00:43:06.570 --> 00:43:08.320
So at the same time they had,

00:43:08.320 --> 00:43:09.817
they pretty much just had

00:43:09.817 --> 00:43:12.463
my little freedom in their hand.

00:43:14.970 --> 00:43:18.670
- [Elizabeth] Korey, it\'s now 3:15.

00:43:18.670 --> 00:43:22.753
We concluded an interview
at about 2:00 o\'clock.

00:43:24.700 --> 00:43:27.970
When we took a statement from you before,

00:43:27.970 --> 00:43:29.080
what you\'re telling us now

00:43:29.080 --> 00:43:30.990
is not the same thing as you told us then.

00:43:30.990 --> 00:43:31.823
- No.

00:43:31.823 --> 00:43:34.120
- [Elizabeth] Why didn\'t you
tell us the truth before?

00:43:34.120 --> 00:43:35.243
- I couldn\'t face telling the truth.

00:43:35.243 --> 00:43:36.823
I couldn\'t face it.

00:43:38.193 --> 00:43:39.960
I could not face it at all.

00:43:39.960 --> 00:43:41.566
- [Elizabeth] What made
you change your mind?

00:43:41.566 --> 00:43:42.510
- I thought about it.

00:43:42.510 --> 00:43:45.520
I thought about it good and strong.

00:43:45.520 --> 00:43:48.123
Something told me you ain\'t
getting with by lying.

00:43:50.170 --> 00:43:53.130
- [Elizabeth] We are about
to finish this interview.

00:43:53.130 --> 00:43:54.080
I want you to know

00:43:55.340 --> 00:43:57.470
we will not have another interview

00:43:57.470 --> 00:43:59.620
even if you send the detective and ask

00:43:59.620 --> 00:44:02.190
for a third chance to say something.

00:44:02.190 --> 00:44:03.130
So I\'m asking you now

00:44:03.130 --> 00:44:05.520
the way I did at the end
of the last interview,

00:44:05.520 --> 00:44:06.451
is there anything--

00:44:06.451 --> 00:44:07.284
- I guarantee you--

00:44:07.284 --> 00:44:08.963
- [Elizabeth] Is there anything at all

00:44:08.963 --> 00:44:10.610
that you have told us

00:44:12.100 --> 00:44:14.770
in the last half hour that we\'ve spoken

00:44:14.770 --> 00:44:17.573
that is not true?
- No more, no more.

00:44:18.439 --> 00:44:20.900
All I said, that\'s what I had to say.

00:44:20.900 --> 00:44:22.550
I told about all the lies I said.

00:44:24.694 --> 00:44:26.450
When the detective came in my face,

00:44:26.450 --> 00:44:28.920
hollering at me, cursing
at me, hitting on me,

00:44:28.920 --> 00:44:29.870
I thought about it.

00:44:30.850 --> 00:44:35.050
Said to myself, you know you said a lie.

00:44:35.050 --> 00:44:37.650
You said at least 10, 20 lies.

00:44:37.650 --> 00:44:38.958
- [Elizabeth] Have you
told us the truth now?

00:44:38.958 --> 00:44:40.002
- Yes ma\'am.

00:44:40.002 --> 00:44:42.310
- [Elizabeth] Did you tell
us the truth voluntarily?

00:44:42.310 --> 00:44:43.242
- Yes ma\'am.

00:44:43.242 --> 00:44:44.231
- [Elizabeth] Because you wanted to?

00:44:44.231 --> 00:44:45.064
- Yes ma\'am.

00:44:45.064 --> 00:44:45.897
- [Elizabeth] Did anyone force you?

00:44:45.897 --> 00:44:46.730
- No ma\'am.

00:44:46.730 --> 00:44:47.613
- [Elizabeth] Did anyone threaten you?

00:44:47.613 --> 00:44:48.900
- No.

00:44:48.900 --> 00:44:50.070
- [Elizabeth] Thank you very much.

00:44:50.070 --> 00:44:52.860
It is now 20 minutes to 4:00

00:44:52.860 --> 00:44:54.507
and the interview is concluded.

00:44:55.416 --> 00:44:57.833
(soft music)

00:45:34.713 --> 00:45:38.320
- In Renay\'s case, it was
a very bloody crime scene.

00:45:38.320 --> 00:45:39.710
The murder weapon was never found

00:45:39.710 --> 00:45:41.500
but there was a purse

00:45:41.500 --> 00:45:43.220
that had a bloody fingerprint in it

00:45:43.220 --> 00:45:45.050
and there was a drawer in the bedroom

00:45:45.050 --> 00:45:46.810
with a bloody fingerprint on it.

00:45:46.810 --> 00:45:50.690
They DNA tested some things but not those.

00:45:50.690 --> 00:45:53.550
And the only DNA found at the
crime scene was the victim\'s

00:45:53.550 --> 00:45:56.810
but I think out of 41 pieces of evidence

00:45:56.810 --> 00:45:59.920
they tested seven for DNA.

00:45:59.920 --> 00:46:02.350
And so, you know, they\'re
in trouble, right, at trial

00:46:02.350 --> 00:46:03.650
because you can\'t get convicted

00:46:03.650 --> 00:46:05.170
on your own confession alone.

00:46:05.170 --> 00:46:06.360
So they go and they try to

00:46:06.360 --> 00:46:09.273
round up jailhouse snitches
but only one worked.

00:46:12.970 --> 00:46:15.300
(tense music)

00:46:15.300 --> 00:46:18.260
So it was her confession
and a jailhouse snitch

00:46:18.260 --> 00:46:20.780
which is so common in
false confession cases

00:46:20.780 --> 00:46:22.970
that you have the confession
and then the extra evidence

00:46:22.970 --> 00:46:24.770
because there\'s no physical evidence

00:46:24.770 --> 00:46:28.037
the corroboration to the
confession is the snitch.

00:46:28.037 --> 00:46:30.787
(train rumbling)

00:46:38.710 --> 00:46:41.627
(knocking on door)

00:46:45.420 --> 00:46:46.253
Hi.

00:46:47.520 --> 00:46:48.540
I\'m helping, you know,

00:46:48.540 --> 00:46:50.220
do you remember the woman Renay Lynch

00:46:50.220 --> 00:46:52.504
a long time ago?

00:46:52.504 --> 00:46:53.337
- [Man] Yeah.

00:46:53.337 --> 00:46:55.950
- So I\'m trying to get her out of prison

00:46:55.950 --> 00:46:57.590
\'cause I don\'t believe that she did

00:46:57.590 --> 00:46:59.090
what she was accused of.

00:46:59.090 --> 00:47:00.660
I need to talk with Raquel.

00:47:00.660 --> 00:47:02.680
They were in Bedford together.

00:47:02.680 --> 00:47:03.513
Thanks.

00:47:05.490 --> 00:47:07.035
- [Woman] Now my name is on it!

00:47:07.035 --> 00:47:08.547
So let\'s sit on the porch crying.

00:47:08.547 --> 00:47:10.767
I don\'t wanna do it.

00:47:10.767 --> 00:47:13.351
If people know more about this than they--

00:47:13.351 --> 00:47:15.205
- Should I just go in?

00:47:15.205 --> 00:47:17.038
Should I just walk in?

00:47:18.380 --> 00:47:20.383
- She\'ll call you if you
leave me your number.

00:47:20.383 --> 00:47:21.306
She\'ll call, I\'ll give it to her

00:47:21.306 --> 00:47:22.709
and have her call you.

00:47:22.709 --> 00:47:24.278
I\'ll try to call her this evening.

00:47:24.278 --> 00:47:25.111
- [Michael] All right.

00:47:25.111 --> 00:47:25.944
- I hope so.

00:47:25.944 --> 00:47:27.570
Please, please, because it is,

00:47:27.570 --> 00:47:30.620
Renay\'s doing 25 to life
for something she didn\'t do

00:47:30.620 --> 00:47:33.760
and we really are hitting
a lot of dead ends

00:47:33.760 --> 00:47:36.446
and Raquel\'s gonna be a huge help to us.

00:47:36.446 --> 00:47:37.310
- [Man] Okay.

00:47:37.310 --> 00:47:38.143
- [Michael] Thank you very much.

00:47:38.143 --> 00:47:39.083
- Thank you, sir.

00:47:41.184 --> 00:47:42.017
- [Michael] Maybe that yelling

00:47:42.017 --> 00:47:43.410
in the background wasn\'t to you?

00:47:43.410 --> 00:47:45.210
- [Jane] No, it was a person.

00:47:45.210 --> 00:47:47.383
But it maybe wasn\'t her.

00:47:47.383 --> 00:47:49.883
(tense music)

00:47:59.520 --> 00:48:00.353
- [India] Hello.

00:48:00.353 --> 00:48:01.186
- [Jane] Hi.

00:48:01.186 --> 00:48:02.089
- [India] Give me a minute

00:48:02.089 --> 00:48:02.922
because I don\'t have no bottoms on.

00:48:02.922 --> 00:48:05.023
- [Jane] Okay. (laughs)

00:48:07.622 --> 00:48:08.455
- [India] Come in!

00:48:08.455 --> 00:48:09.667
- Okay.

00:48:09.667 --> 00:48:11.293
That\'s okay, hi.

00:48:12.460 --> 00:48:13.983
Do you mind if I sit down?

00:48:15.900 --> 00:48:16.733
- No, honey, please.

00:48:16.733 --> 00:48:17.566
Y\'all gotta forgive me.

00:48:17.566 --> 00:48:19.384
- [Jane] Okay, that\'s okay.

00:48:19.384 --> 00:48:22.113
- [Michael] Do you know Raquel Hunter?

00:48:22.113 --> 00:48:24.023
I don\'t have a street name for her.

00:48:24.023 --> 00:48:25.043
- [India] We called her Bum Bum.

00:48:25.043 --> 00:48:26.159
Can y\'all find her?

00:48:26.159 --> 00:48:26.992
- Well we\'re trying.
- We\'re looking for her.

00:48:26.992 --> 00:48:27.825
We\'re trying.

00:48:28.980 --> 00:48:31.470
- Well, look, we don\'t,

00:48:31.470 --> 00:48:35.364
we\'re not here at all to judge anybody

00:48:35.364 --> 00:48:38.020
or get anybody in trouble.

00:48:38.020 --> 00:48:39.420
This is not our goal at all.

00:48:41.010 --> 00:48:42.580
Do you remember interacting

00:48:42.580 --> 00:48:45.170
with any of the police officers back then?

00:48:45.170 --> 00:48:46.950
- Mister GQ man.

00:48:46.950 --> 00:48:48.540
Ask Judy what his name was.

00:48:48.540 --> 00:48:50.860
Very arrogant son of a bitch.

00:48:50.860 --> 00:48:53.580
My impression looking back then,

00:48:53.580 --> 00:48:55.750
like he oh yeah, she\'s guilty.

00:48:55.750 --> 00:48:56.720
Well, she\'s guilty.

00:48:56.720 --> 00:48:59.320
And he gonna make sure Renay do some time.

00:48:59.320 --> 00:49:01.340
It was a bloody crime.

00:49:01.340 --> 00:49:05.080
So now we know, I watch
my share of TV, DNA.

00:49:05.080 --> 00:49:08.430
Some piece of her or somebody else

00:49:08.430 --> 00:49:09.660
had to be in that house

00:49:11.009 --> 00:49:12.490
other than Louise.

00:49:12.490 --> 00:49:13.323
- That\'s one of the things

00:49:13.323 --> 00:49:18.323
that we hope to be able
to do is retest the DNA.

00:49:18.490 --> 00:49:21.640
I personally in my professional experience

00:49:21.640 --> 00:49:23.780
have seen it that there are sometimes,

00:49:23.780 --> 00:49:25.540
for a variety of reasons,

00:49:25.540 --> 00:49:27.890
people end up saying they
did something they didn\'t do.

00:49:27.890 --> 00:49:29.120
It\'s not unheard of.

00:49:29.120 --> 00:49:30.894
- \'Cause it\'s been a long time.

00:49:30.894 --> 00:49:33.110
- [India] Yeah.

00:49:33.110 --> 00:49:35.270
- And under these circumstance.

00:49:35.270 --> 00:49:37.120
- Look, there\'s not
like she has no chance.

00:49:37.120 --> 00:49:39.160
Some cases we get and we look at them

00:49:39.160 --> 00:49:42.620
and we, even if we believe
the person\'s innocent,

00:49:42.620 --> 00:49:45.210
we can say, well, there\'s
just, for a variety of reasons,

00:49:45.210 --> 00:49:46.520
nothing we can do.

00:49:46.520 --> 00:49:48.500
There\'s something we can do here

00:49:48.500 --> 00:49:50.843
but not a lot of people get exonerated.

00:49:51.700 --> 00:49:54.490
I hope that you will see
your sister not in prison

00:49:54.490 --> 00:49:58.520
but she\'s not eligible
for parole until 2023.

00:49:58.520 --> 00:50:00.050
If you don\'t accept responsibility,

00:50:00.050 --> 00:50:03.370
you\'re not gonna be
considered to be rehabilitated

00:50:03.370 --> 00:50:05.230
so you\'re not gonna pass the parole board.

00:50:05.230 --> 00:50:07.670
So she\'s never gonna get
out is what I\'m saying

00:50:07.670 --> 00:50:09.820
if we don\'t fix this.
- Oh my God.

00:50:13.395 --> 00:50:15.670
(soft music)

00:50:15.670 --> 00:50:18.570
- The wheels of justice roll very slowly.

00:50:18.570 --> 00:50:19.403
- [Jane] Yes.

00:50:21.099 --> 00:50:22.349
All right then.

00:50:25.102 --> 00:50:26.935
- I hope you find \'em.

00:50:31.501 --> 00:50:34.084
(Jane sighing)

00:50:39.920 --> 00:50:43.040
(phone chiming)

00:50:43.040 --> 00:50:43.873
- [Jane] Hello?

00:50:44.753 --> 00:50:46.580
- [Raquel] Hello, is this Jane?

00:50:46.580 --> 00:50:49.020
- [Jane] Yeah, who is this?

00:50:49.020 --> 00:50:49.970
- [Raquel] Hold on.

00:50:50.860 --> 00:50:52.253
- [Jane] Is this Raquel?

00:50:53.894 --> 00:50:55.860
- [Raquel] Yes, this is Raquel.

00:50:55.860 --> 00:50:56.770
- [Jane] I just wanna talk to you

00:50:56.770 --> 00:50:59.740
because I\'m helping Renay,
trying to get her out.

00:50:59.740 --> 00:51:01.090
Can we come by?

00:51:01.090 --> 00:51:02.620
- [Raquel] Well, what do I have to do?

00:51:02.620 --> 00:51:04.166
- [Jane] Just talk to me.

00:51:04.166 --> 00:51:04.999
- [Raquel] Okay.

00:51:04.999 --> 00:51:06.490
- [Jane] Okay, thank you so much.

00:51:07.490 --> 00:51:10.978
We need to ask the most important thing

00:51:10.978 --> 00:51:14.440
is that how she was, what her interactions

00:51:14.440 --> 00:51:15.590
with the police were.

00:51:22.185 --> 00:51:23.850
- [Raquel] When I was
in jail, I was young.

00:51:23.850 --> 00:51:24.683
- [Jane] Right.

00:51:24.683 --> 00:51:27.020
- [Raquel] Was on drugs, crack, you know,

00:51:27.020 --> 00:51:29.600
and I lied because me and Renay

00:51:29.600 --> 00:51:31.330
actually didn\'t have a conversation.

00:51:31.330 --> 00:51:32.200
- [Jane] Okay.

00:51:32.200 --> 00:51:34.400
Did the officers promise you anything?

00:51:34.400 --> 00:51:35.233
Like were you gonna get out--

00:51:35.233 --> 00:51:36.270
- [Raquel] They promised to let me out.

00:51:36.270 --> 00:51:37.770
So, I ran with it.

00:51:37.770 --> 00:51:38.603
- [Jane] Right, right.

00:51:38.603 --> 00:51:39.520
- [Raquel] \'Cause I wanted to get out.

00:51:39.520 --> 00:51:41.160
- [Jane] And so you actually did get out?

00:51:41.160 --> 00:51:41.993
- [Raquel] Mm-hmm.

00:51:41.993 --> 00:51:42.970
- Thank you.

00:51:42.970 --> 00:51:44.170
We really appreciate it.

00:51:47.280 --> 00:51:48.650
Okay, so that\'s good.

00:51:48.650 --> 00:51:49.493
That\'s helpful.

00:51:54.040 --> 00:51:55.140
- [GPS] Recalculating.

00:51:56.833 --> 00:52:01.266
Continue .4 miles then turn left.

00:52:01.266 --> 00:52:04.766
(police radio chattering)

00:52:10.112 --> 00:52:12.862
(sirens wailing)

00:52:19.800 --> 00:52:21.770
- [Jason] Everybody thinks
they\'re brave, right?

00:52:21.770 --> 00:52:24.890
And everybody thinks
that they are, you know,

00:52:24.890 --> 00:52:27.010
incapable of folding

00:52:27.010 --> 00:52:29.130
and implicating themselves.

00:52:29.130 --> 00:52:31.190
It\'s very counterintuitive.

00:52:31.190 --> 00:52:34.670
The thing I wanna talk
about is the Reid method.

00:52:34.670 --> 00:52:39.470
That particular aspect of
the interrogation process.

00:52:39.470 --> 00:52:41.190
- During an interview, we ask questions

00:52:41.190 --> 00:52:43.880
to develop investigative information.

00:52:43.880 --> 00:52:45.340
But during the interrogation now,

00:52:45.340 --> 00:52:46.730
we\'re going to make statements

00:52:46.730 --> 00:52:48.450
for the purpose of obtaining

00:52:48.450 --> 00:52:50.014
an admission of guilt.

00:52:50.014 --> 00:52:53.470
- [Jason] It\'s almost like
it\'s written like a play.

00:52:53.470 --> 00:52:55.720
It\'s designed perfectly

00:52:55.720 --> 00:52:58.510
to sort of shrink your personal space

00:52:58.510 --> 00:53:03.030
and give you a sense
that you have no way out

00:53:03.030 --> 00:53:04.470
other than to confess.

00:53:04.470 --> 00:53:06.410
- At the beginning of the interrogation

00:53:06.410 --> 00:53:08.340
the investigator enters the room,

00:53:08.340 --> 00:53:09.670
stands about three or four feet

00:53:09.670 --> 00:53:12.610
away from the suspect,
looking down on the suspect,

00:53:12.610 --> 00:53:15.220
and in a very direct and unequivocal way,

00:53:15.220 --> 00:53:18.657
accuses him or her of
committing the crime.

00:53:18.657 --> 00:53:21.074
(soft music)

00:53:36.710 --> 00:53:39.483
- [Jason] Let\'s talk
about Lorenzo Montoya.

00:53:44.740 --> 00:53:48.310
- [Detective] Today\'s date is 1-10 of 2000

00:53:49.910 --> 00:53:53.103
and the time by my watch
right now is 20:02.

00:53:54.790 --> 00:53:56.880
We\'re located in a video
tape interview room

00:53:56.880 --> 00:53:59.260
at Denver Police Department Headquarters

00:53:59.260 --> 00:54:03.177
and the person being
interviewed is Lorenzo Montoya.

00:54:07.920 --> 00:54:12.920
- Lorenzo Montoya was
arrested in the year 2000

00:54:12.950 --> 00:54:17.563
and accused of a murder of a
young school teacher in Denver.

00:54:18.440 --> 00:54:21.170
He\'s 14 years old,
Lorenzo, when this happened

00:54:21.170 --> 00:54:22.430
and he is tiny.

00:54:22.430 --> 00:54:24.742
Like maybe 110 pounds.

00:54:24.742 --> 00:54:26.511
- I didn\'t kill nobody, man.

00:54:26.511 --> 00:54:27.860
- [Detective] Who killed her?

00:54:27.860 --> 00:54:28.763
Nick, right?

00:54:29.890 --> 00:54:32.350
- The overlap between Malthe and Lorenzo

00:54:32.350 --> 00:54:34.740
is with Malthe they tell him
there\'s these video tapes

00:54:34.740 --> 00:54:37.110
that show him abusing
children which there aren\'t.

00:54:37.110 --> 00:54:38.830
In Lorenzo, they actually go as far

00:54:38.830 --> 00:54:40.620
as to have him take his shoes off

00:54:40.620 --> 00:54:42.670
and they do this whole charade

00:54:42.670 --> 00:54:44.250
where this very angry cop

00:54:44.250 --> 00:54:45.727
comes back in with the shoe and says,

00:54:45.727 --> 00:54:47.517
\"Well, I\'m a shoe print expert

00:54:47.517 --> 00:54:50.480
\"and your shoe matches the
print at the crime scene.\"

00:54:50.480 --> 00:54:52.510
That wasn\'t true.

00:54:52.510 --> 00:54:53.343
Right?

00:54:53.343 --> 00:54:56.130
We have a lot of false
confession cases right now

00:54:56.130 --> 00:54:59.060
and I think it would sort
of be helpful for me,

00:54:59.060 --> 00:55:01.560
we almost never have a
video of the interrogation.

00:55:01.560 --> 00:55:02.503
Really, never.

00:55:03.340 --> 00:55:05.050
But in Lorenzo Montoya\'s case,

00:55:05.050 --> 00:55:07.900
his interrogation was video taped

00:55:07.900 --> 00:55:09.750
and it would be super helpful for me

00:55:09.750 --> 00:55:11.192
if maybe we could watch some of it

00:55:11.192 --> 00:55:15.750
and discuss sort of
what\'s happening to him

00:55:15.750 --> 00:55:18.117
and why he\'s going from saying

00:55:18.117 --> 00:55:21.130
\"I\'m not guilty\" 60 something times

00:55:21.130 --> 00:55:22.670
to all of a sudden putting himself

00:55:22.670 --> 00:55:23.920
at the scene of a murder.

00:55:25.500 --> 00:55:27.330
- [Detective] You current
address is 951 Newton

00:55:27.330 --> 00:55:30.490
but you\'re moving to 1525 Yate.

00:55:30.490 --> 00:55:31.730
Is that correct?

00:55:31.730 --> 00:55:32.563
- [Lorenzo] Mm-hmm.

00:55:32.563 --> 00:55:33.970
- [Detective] And your phone number is,

00:55:33.970 --> 00:55:35.648
who\'s phone number was in here?

00:55:35.648 --> 00:55:37.020
534.

00:55:37.020 --> 00:55:38.040
- Before we even get into

00:55:38.040 --> 00:55:40.340
the content of this interrogation,

00:55:40.340 --> 00:55:42.060
look at his posture.

00:55:42.060 --> 00:55:44.860
I will tell you that according
to most training manuals,

00:55:44.860 --> 00:55:46.100
you would look at that posture

00:55:46.100 --> 00:55:47.950
and see somebody who is deceptive.

00:55:47.950 --> 00:55:51.540
It causes detectives,
trained in those techniques,

00:55:51.540 --> 00:55:53.419
to often make a misjudgment of deception.

00:55:53.419 --> 00:55:54.550
- [Jane] Okay, right.

00:55:54.550 --> 00:55:55.740
- [Saul] When all
they\'re really looking at

00:55:55.740 --> 00:55:58.480
is somebody who\'s coping
with an anxious situation.

00:55:58.480 --> 00:56:01.240
- [Detective] You\'re gonna
be spending life in prison

00:56:01.240 --> 00:56:02.580
because I\'m not gonna rest

00:56:02.580 --> 00:56:03.930
and the rest of the detectives,

00:56:03.930 --> 00:56:05.300
12 detectives out here tonight,

00:56:05.300 --> 00:56:07.800
are not rest until we find the murderer

00:56:07.800 --> 00:56:08.890
and it\'s gonna happen tonight.

00:56:08.890 --> 00:56:10.540
We\'ve got one in custody already.

00:56:13.328 --> 00:56:14.703
And we got JR coming down.

00:56:16.810 --> 00:56:18.010
- Were you there?
- So you the

00:56:18.010 --> 00:56:19.190
third party there?

00:56:19.190 --> 00:56:21.210
- No, I swear to God, sir.

00:56:21.210 --> 00:56:22.400
- [Detective] I tell you Lorenzo,

00:56:22.400 --> 00:56:24.570
if you were there you
better give it up now.

00:56:24.570 --> 00:56:26.280
- Were you there?
- I\'ve got fingerprints.

00:56:26.280 --> 00:56:28.830
We\'ve got blood prints,
we\'ve got saliva prints.

00:56:28.830 --> 00:56:30.474
We\'ve got everything

00:56:30.474 --> 00:56:31.730
and if you were there

00:56:31.730 --> 00:56:33.140
we\'re gonna find out.

00:56:33.140 --> 00:56:34.390
- Now that\'s interesting.

00:56:36.070 --> 00:56:38.930
He didn\'t say we had your
blood, we had your saliva.

00:56:38.930 --> 00:56:41.800
He said we have that to
be tested, basically.

00:56:41.800 --> 00:56:42.633
- [Jane] Right.

00:56:44.053 --> 00:56:45.703
- [Detective] Let me see
the bottom of your shoes.

00:56:47.687 --> 00:56:49.733
Can you put \'em up on that table?

00:56:53.496 --> 00:56:54.946
Hmm.

00:56:54.946 --> 00:56:56.196
Put those down.

00:56:58.243 --> 00:56:59.076
Hey John.

00:57:00.065 --> 00:57:00.898
John!

00:57:02.094 --> 00:57:05.177
Put your shoe up there again, please.

00:57:06.284 --> 00:57:08.867
These outside marks right here.

00:57:10.848 --> 00:57:13.681
- [John] Let me see the other one.

00:57:22.220 --> 00:57:23.220
- [Saul] In the United States,

00:57:23.220 --> 00:57:25.370
police are permitted
to lie about evidence.

00:57:26.259 --> 00:57:27.092
- [John] I can tell you right now

00:57:27.092 --> 00:57:29.603
this is the pattern that we
have at the homicide scene.

00:57:31.115 --> 00:57:33.663
You better think long and
fast about this one, pal.

00:57:34.900 --> 00:57:38.220
- That is a shocking
discovery to most people.

00:57:38.220 --> 00:57:40.317
Most western countries don\'t permit it.

00:57:40.317 --> 00:57:42.980
The US Supreme Court permits it.

00:57:42.980 --> 00:57:45.150
So, consequently, you have two detectives

00:57:45.150 --> 00:57:47.560
making it seem as if we
have independent evidence.

00:57:47.560 --> 00:57:49.090
They sometimes will get very specific

00:57:49.090 --> 00:57:51.060
about what they evidence is,

00:57:51.060 --> 00:57:53.290
telling us that you were
involved in something.

00:57:53.290 --> 00:57:56.780
They\'ve already started
that shaping process

00:57:56.780 --> 00:57:58.880
and the mother already is believing it.

00:57:58.880 --> 00:58:01.930
- And then you\'re not
gonna tell him anything?

00:58:01.930 --> 00:58:03.980
Don\'t you think that\'s kinda stupid, huh?

00:58:06.290 --> 00:58:08.370
You tell them exactly what they wanna hear

00:58:08.370 --> 00:58:09.480
so we can get outta here.

00:58:09.480 --> 00:58:10.970
Do you understand?

00:58:10.970 --> 00:58:12.470
- Yes.
- All right.

00:58:15.187 --> 00:58:16.833
- [Detective] Now what do you say?

00:58:20.417 --> 00:58:21.450
- He cut the legs.

00:58:22.864 --> 00:58:23.697
- [Detective] I want a story.

00:58:23.697 --> 00:58:25.130
I want a whole complete story.

00:58:25.130 --> 00:58:27.430
Does that look like the
same footprint to you?

00:58:30.637 --> 00:58:31.637
Is that not correct?

00:58:32.900 --> 00:58:34.600
It\'s the same footprint, isn\'t it?

00:58:35.620 --> 00:58:36.910
Isn\'t it?

00:58:36.910 --> 00:58:37.743
- No.

00:58:38.780 --> 00:58:39.613
- [Detective] Lorenzo, do I have to bring

00:58:39.613 --> 00:58:40.446
those shoes back in here

00:58:40.446 --> 00:58:42.180
and show you that diamond pattern?

00:58:42.180 --> 00:58:43.203
It\'s the same print.

00:58:46.460 --> 00:58:47.293
Now you better get up.

00:58:47.293 --> 00:58:48.250
You made a mistake.

00:58:48.250 --> 00:58:50.520
- So he just introduced the word mistake.

00:58:50.520 --> 00:58:52.800
He\'s about to develop this theme

00:58:52.800 --> 00:58:54.960
that enables Lorenzo to admit

00:58:54.960 --> 00:58:56.710
some degree of involvement

00:58:56.710 --> 00:58:58.130
while minimizing his own role.

00:58:58.130 --> 00:58:59.630
That\'s what I\'m gonna guess is coming.

00:58:59.630 --> 00:59:01.420
I haven\'t seen this yet

00:59:01.420 --> 00:59:03.310
but he\'s used the word mistake.

00:59:03.310 --> 00:59:05.990
It\'s part of a package of techniques

00:59:05.990 --> 00:59:08.670
that in which you communicate to a suspect

00:59:08.670 --> 00:59:10.950
that, I think you\'re a good person,

00:59:10.950 --> 00:59:12.960
I understand what you\'ve been through,

00:59:12.960 --> 00:59:15.280
I sympathize with what
you\'ve been through.

00:59:15.280 --> 00:59:17.630
Often you hear normalizing statements

00:59:17.630 --> 00:59:19.540
like, you know what, if
I were in your situation,

00:59:19.540 --> 00:59:21.490
I wouldn\'t done the same thing.

00:59:21.490 --> 00:59:22.323
And oh, by the way,

00:59:22.323 --> 00:59:24.300
I don\'t think you intended to do this.

00:59:24.300 --> 00:59:25.430
I think it was an accident

00:59:25.430 --> 00:59:26.810
or maybe your friends put you up to it

00:59:26.810 --> 00:59:27.840
or maybe you were provoked.

00:59:27.840 --> 00:59:31.100
- [Detective] You didn\'t mean
to kill that woman, Lorenzo.

00:59:31.100 --> 00:59:33.000
I don\'t think you\'re that type of guy.

00:59:35.220 --> 00:59:36.630
I think you went to jack the car

00:59:36.630 --> 00:59:37.980
and it went bad, didn\'t it?

00:59:39.950 --> 00:59:40.783
Didn\'t it?

00:59:41.770 --> 00:59:42.980
- [Detective] Are you
still afraid of these guys

00:59:42.980 --> 00:59:44.335
that these guys told you to do it

00:59:44.335 --> 00:59:46.500
and you had to do it because
you\'re afraid of them?

00:59:46.500 --> 00:59:48.300
- [Detective] You went in didn\'t you?

00:59:48.300 --> 00:59:50.320
You guys were just gonna jack the car.

00:59:50.320 --> 00:59:54.020
- [Saul] The communication
moves in one direction.

00:59:54.020 --> 00:59:56.690
It is designed to lead
the person, the suspect,

00:59:56.690 --> 00:59:58.280
to think that the police don\'t think

00:59:58.280 --> 00:59:59.726
this is such a big deal.

00:59:59.726 --> 01:00:00.670
- [Jane] Right, okay.

01:00:00.670 --> 01:00:03.260
- And therefore, I\'ll be
treated with leniency.

01:00:03.260 --> 01:00:04.560
So what are my choices?

01:00:04.560 --> 01:00:08.790
Either I can be the accomplice
who refuses to speak

01:00:08.790 --> 01:00:11.570
or I can admit to what
they want me to admit to,

01:00:11.570 --> 01:00:13.240
given all of the minimization

01:00:13.240 --> 01:00:14.570
that they\'ve given me

01:00:14.570 --> 01:00:16.270
and enjoy the benefit of that.

01:00:16.270 --> 01:00:17.103
- [Detective] What do you think

01:00:17.103 --> 01:00:18.363
the public\'s gonna want from him?

01:00:19.761 --> 01:00:21.297
They\'re gonna want him in jail of life.

01:00:21.297 --> 01:00:22.800
- And we\'re supposed to sit here and think

01:00:22.800 --> 01:00:24.730
you\'re afraid he\'s gonna beat you up?

01:00:24.730 --> 01:00:25.563
He can\'t beat you.

01:00:25.563 --> 01:00:26.420
He can\'t even touch you, so.

01:00:28.006 --> 01:00:29.163
- [Mother] Start talking.

01:00:30.880 --> 01:00:31.940
- [Detective] Aren\'t you even afraid

01:00:31.940 --> 01:00:33.220
of withholding information

01:00:33.220 --> 01:00:34.890
or be an accessory?
- Yes.

01:00:34.890 --> 01:00:37.351
- [Detective] Aren\'t you
afraid of being a suspect?

01:00:37.351 --> 01:00:38.184
- Yes.

01:00:38.184 --> 01:00:39.017
- [Detective] It leads me to believe

01:00:39.017 --> 01:00:40.200
that you\'re a possible suspect in this

01:00:40.200 --> 01:00:42.300
if you won\'t tell us what\'s going on.

01:00:42.300 --> 01:00:44.220
- You tell us what we wanna hear

01:00:44.220 --> 01:00:47.000
or you\'re a suspect or you\'re involved.

01:00:47.000 --> 01:00:48.890
Those are his choices.

01:00:48.890 --> 01:00:50.620
This is sometimes referred to

01:00:50.620 --> 01:00:52.687
as the alternative question

01:00:52.687 --> 01:00:53.710
and the alternative question

01:00:53.710 --> 01:00:55.470
says you have two choices.

01:00:55.470 --> 01:00:57.550
Either you\'re a witness
or you\'re a suspect.

01:00:57.550 --> 01:00:59.040
Either you\'re a cooperating witness

01:00:59.040 --> 01:01:00.690
and you tell us what we need to hear

01:01:00.690 --> 01:01:02.730
or you\'re probably involved.

01:01:02.730 --> 01:01:06.100
- [Detective] You broke in
through the back, didn\'t you?

01:01:06.100 --> 01:01:08.930
Who put their arm in
the mailbox, milk box?

01:01:08.930 --> 01:01:09.763
You?

01:01:09.763 --> 01:01:10.737
- No.

01:01:10.737 --> 01:01:12.000
- [Detective] We will have
fingerprints in there.

01:01:12.000 --> 01:01:13.350
Who did that?

01:01:13.350 --> 01:01:14.183
Nick?

01:01:14.183 --> 01:01:17.010
- [Saul] Look at how much
they\'ve communicated already.

01:01:17.010 --> 01:01:19.520
He now knows so much about this crime

01:01:19.520 --> 01:01:20.870
that, whether he was there

01:01:20.870 --> 01:01:23.180
or had anything to do with it or not,

01:01:23.180 --> 01:01:24.430
he now knows enough about it

01:01:24.430 --> 01:01:26.185
to give you a description.

01:01:26.185 --> 01:01:28.560
(Lorenzo crying)

01:01:28.560 --> 01:01:30.600
- [Detective] Lorenzo, why were you there?

01:01:30.600 --> 01:01:31.524
- Where?

01:01:31.524 --> 01:01:34.175
- [Detective] Why were you
there at this lady\'s house?

01:01:34.175 --> 01:01:36.110
- I was not at that lady\'s house, bro.

01:01:36.110 --> 01:01:38.250
- [Detective] Lorenzo, your
footprint\'s in that blood.

01:01:38.250 --> 01:01:40.320
Who kicked her in the head first?

01:01:40.320 --> 01:01:41.153
Nick or JR?

01:01:41.153 --> 01:01:42.450
- [Jane] All right, who
kicked her in the head?

01:01:42.450 --> 01:01:43.590
- [Saul] Of course, they\'re building

01:01:43.590 --> 01:01:44.963
a story for him to tell.

01:01:46.170 --> 01:01:48.690
- [Detective] Lorenzo, you
helped drag her out, didn\'t you?

01:01:48.690 --> 01:01:49.523
- No, sir.

01:01:49.523 --> 01:01:52.200
- [Detective] Those shoes
are in the drag shoes.

01:01:52.200 --> 01:01:53.033
Didn\'t you?

01:01:54.990 --> 01:01:56.490
Lorenzo.

01:01:56.490 --> 01:01:58.080
- [Detective] Was that your input?

01:01:58.080 --> 01:01:58.913
- No.

01:01:58.913 --> 01:02:00.480
- [Detective] Your job
was just to drag her out?

01:02:00.480 --> 01:02:02.400
- He\'s now being set up

01:02:02.400 --> 01:02:04.410
so that when he\'s ready
to give a statement,

01:02:04.410 --> 01:02:06.510
he knows exactly what that
statement should contain.

01:02:06.510 --> 01:02:07.610
- [Jane] Right.

01:02:07.610 --> 01:02:10.850
He knows the gate, he knows
kicked in the head, shoe.

01:02:10.850 --> 01:02:12.770
- Dragging her through the blood.

01:02:12.770 --> 01:02:13.880
Yeah, he\'s got it all.

01:02:13.880 --> 01:02:15.250
So later a judge and a jury

01:02:15.250 --> 01:02:17.430
is gonna watch that final confession

01:02:17.430 --> 01:02:19.020
and they\'re gonna be so impressed

01:02:19.020 --> 01:02:20.870
and unable to look past it

01:02:20.870 --> 01:02:22.680
because they keep on asking themselves,

01:02:22.680 --> 01:02:24.660
well how did he know those
things if he wasn\'t there?

01:02:24.660 --> 01:02:25.493
- [Jane] Right.

01:02:28.670 --> 01:02:29.720
- [Detective] Huh?

01:02:29.720 --> 01:02:30.620
Who hit her first?

01:02:32.610 --> 01:02:34.100
You?

01:02:34.100 --> 01:02:35.200
Did you hit her first?

01:02:36.679 --> 01:02:37.795
- I didn\'t hit nobody, man.

01:02:37.795 --> 01:02:38.628
- Did you hit her first?
- I wasn\'t there.

01:02:38.628 --> 01:02:39.569
I wasn\'t there.
- Did you hit her first?

01:02:39.569 --> 01:02:40.819
You were there!

01:02:41.810 --> 01:02:43.373
Did you hit her first?

01:02:43.373 --> 01:02:44.206
- I wasn\'t there.

01:02:44.206 --> 01:02:45.310
- [Detective] You were there.

01:02:45.310 --> 01:02:46.390
- Notice something else,

01:02:46.390 --> 01:02:48.550
that every time he starts
to proclaim his innocence,

01:02:48.550 --> 01:02:50.440
he gets interrupted mid-sentence.

01:02:50.440 --> 01:02:52.500
You confront, you interrupt their denials,

01:02:52.500 --> 01:02:54.020
you plow over their objections,

01:02:54.020 --> 01:02:55.360
you confront them with evidence,

01:02:55.360 --> 01:02:57.320
whether it\'s real or manufactured.

01:02:57.320 --> 01:02:58.840
You do all of that to break him down

01:02:58.840 --> 01:03:02.010
into a sense of despair
and at the same time

01:03:02.010 --> 01:03:03.400
that you\'re doing all that,

01:03:03.400 --> 01:03:05.920
you\'re offering him an escape hatch.

01:03:05.920 --> 01:03:07.230
I think you\'re a good person.

01:03:07.230 --> 01:03:09.280
I don\'t think this is
something you intended to do.

01:03:09.280 --> 01:03:10.113
- Right.

01:03:10.113 --> 01:03:11.250
- I think you were in a bad situation.

01:03:11.250 --> 01:03:13.741
I might have behaved in the
same way in that situation.

01:03:13.741 --> 01:03:16.360
You\'re throwing all of it in.

01:03:16.360 --> 01:03:17.330
So on the one hand

01:03:17.330 --> 01:03:21.320
he is being broken down
into a state of despair

01:03:21.320 --> 01:03:24.020
thinking that his prosecution
will be inevitable

01:03:24.020 --> 01:03:26.210
whether he cooperates or not.

01:03:26.210 --> 01:03:28.340
On the other hand the
message is communicated

01:03:28.340 --> 01:03:30.840
that if you cooperate
things will go well for you.

01:03:31.727 --> 01:03:34.200
I don\'t know how you get
out of that combination.

01:03:34.200 --> 01:03:36.140
And he\'s 14 and his
mother is urging him on.

01:03:36.140 --> 01:03:37.430
- [Jane] Right.

01:03:37.430 --> 01:03:38.263
- [Detective] I\'m asking a question.

01:03:38.263 --> 01:03:39.230
Did you mean to kill her?

01:03:39.230 --> 01:03:41.820
- I didn\'t kill nobody, man.

01:03:41.820 --> 01:03:43.000
- [Detective] Who killed her?

01:03:43.000 --> 01:03:43.833
Nick, right?

01:03:45.320 --> 01:03:46.153
Nick killed her.

01:03:46.153 --> 01:03:47.733
You didn\'t kill her, did you?

01:03:47.733 --> 01:03:48.690
- No.

01:03:48.690 --> 01:03:49.830
- [Detective] Hey, look at me here.

01:03:49.830 --> 01:03:50.663
You\'re avoiding me.

01:03:50.663 --> 01:03:51.496
I\'m not going away.

01:03:53.690 --> 01:03:56.106
You didn\'t mean to kill her, did you?

01:03:56.106 --> 01:03:58.050
It\'s a yes or no answer.

01:03:58.050 --> 01:04:00.930
Were you outside Emily Johnson\'s house,

01:04:00.930 --> 01:04:03.683
the murder house, while
Nick and JR went inside?

01:04:04.600 --> 01:04:05.897
- What do you want me to say on that, sir?

01:04:05.897 --> 01:04:06.730
I don\'t know.

01:04:06.730 --> 01:04:07.563
- [Detective] Well, yes or no.

01:04:07.563 --> 01:04:09.090
Did you stay outside the house

01:04:09.090 --> 01:04:11.487
while Nick and JR went inside the house?

01:04:15.320 --> 01:04:16.460
- [Saul] It\'s a trick question

01:04:16.460 --> 01:04:17.960
and he knows it\'s a trick question.

01:04:17.960 --> 01:04:19.420
He\'s trying to figure out

01:04:19.420 --> 01:04:22.150
the implication of saying no.

01:04:22.150 --> 01:04:22.983
What\'s he gonna say?

01:04:22.983 --> 01:04:24.800
He\'s so confused he can\'t see straight.

01:04:26.000 --> 01:04:26.833
- [Detective] I\'m asking you a question.

01:04:26.833 --> 01:04:27.727
Did you mean to kill her?

01:04:27.727 --> 01:04:29.243
It\'s a yes or no answer.

01:04:31.320 --> 01:04:32.730
- How do you answer a question

01:04:32.730 --> 01:04:35.970
like did you go in there
meaning to kill her

01:04:35.970 --> 01:04:37.000
if you weren\'t there at all?

01:04:37.000 --> 01:04:38.070
How do you answer that question?

01:04:38.070 --> 01:04:40.420
How does an innocent person
answer that question?

01:04:40.420 --> 01:04:42.620
Did you go in there meaning to kill her?

01:04:42.620 --> 01:04:44.190
You can\'t say yes

01:04:45.080 --> 01:04:48.093
because you\'re confessing
to premeditated murder.

01:04:49.080 --> 01:04:50.780
So you have to say no.

01:04:50.780 --> 01:04:54.130
But if you say no, you\'re kind
of admitting by implication

01:04:54.130 --> 01:04:56.030
that you were there
but you didn\'t go there

01:04:56.030 --> 01:04:56.863
for that purpose.

01:04:56.863 --> 01:04:57.696
- [Jane] I see.

01:04:57.696 --> 01:04:58.529
Right, right.

01:04:58.529 --> 01:04:59.565
- They\'re narrowing his options.

01:04:59.565 --> 01:05:00.530
- [Jane] So there\'s no good
answer to that question.

01:05:00.530 --> 01:05:02.620
- There is no good answer for...

01:05:03.510 --> 01:05:05.856
The innocent person has no
answer to that question.

01:05:05.856 --> 01:05:07.400
- [Jane] Right.

01:05:07.400 --> 01:05:10.550
- And the problem with this
technique of interrogation

01:05:10.550 --> 01:05:13.110
is it is guilt presumptive by nature.

01:05:13.110 --> 01:05:16.520
I have always said it is
a fine technique to use

01:05:16.520 --> 01:05:20.280
if everybody you bring
in is the perpetrator.

01:05:20.280 --> 01:05:22.590
But there is no way out
for the innocent person.

01:05:22.590 --> 01:05:23.423
- [Jane] Right.

01:05:24.705 --> 01:05:25.538
- [Detective] What you need to do

01:05:25.538 --> 01:05:27.970
is you need to tell us what happened.

01:05:27.970 --> 01:05:30.530
I need to know how much
involvement you did.

01:05:30.530 --> 01:05:34.310
- I wasn\'t there so how could
I tell you what happened?

01:05:34.310 --> 01:05:35.810
- [Detective] Your shoe print was there.

01:05:35.810 --> 01:05:37.013
- Well just \'cause my shoe print was there

01:05:37.013 --> 01:05:37.846
don\'t mean I was there.
- You won\'t tell us

01:05:37.846 --> 01:05:39.920
what Nick said to Anthony.

01:05:39.920 --> 01:05:40.876
Tell us what Nick said.

01:05:40.876 --> 01:05:42.103
- That ain\'t my business.

01:05:42.103 --> 01:05:42.936
- Huh?

01:05:42.936 --> 01:05:43.769
- That ain\'t my business.
- It is your business.

01:05:43.769 --> 01:05:44.870
You were there.

01:05:44.870 --> 01:05:49.870
Your business is Anthony and Nick and JR

01:05:50.350 --> 01:05:52.700
put you in this position right now.

01:05:52.700 --> 01:05:55.030
You are at police headquarters

01:05:55.030 --> 01:05:57.320
with two homicide detectives

01:05:57.320 --> 01:06:00.313
talking about a murder that
you\'re incriminated into.

01:06:01.720 --> 01:06:02.770
This is your business.

01:06:02.770 --> 01:06:06.270
Everything you know about
this case is your business.

01:06:06.270 --> 01:06:07.103
Everything.

01:06:08.920 --> 01:06:10.053
Stare me down.

01:06:11.760 --> 01:06:13.053
You ain\'t that tough.

01:06:15.380 --> 01:06:18.240
I just sat here and watch
you crying for five minutes.

01:06:18.240 --> 01:06:19.550
You ain\'t that tough.

01:06:19.550 --> 01:06:21.600
- [Detective] You\'re going down.

01:06:21.600 --> 01:06:22.860
You ain\'t going home tonight.

01:06:22.860 --> 01:06:24.550
- [Detective] You are
not going home tonight.

01:06:24.550 --> 01:06:26.300
I can guarantee that.

01:06:26.300 --> 01:06:28.680
- [Detective] You are not going home.

01:06:28.680 --> 01:06:29.680
- [Detective] And they do not

01:06:29.680 --> 01:06:31.870
put you in juvie hall for murder.

01:06:31.870 --> 01:06:33.583
They put you in big boy jail.

01:06:36.371 --> 01:06:37.970
- [Detective] Are you ready
to tell your mom goodbye?

01:06:37.970 --> 01:06:39.850
- [Saul] Talk now or
say goodbye to your mom.

01:06:39.850 --> 01:06:40.770
It\'s pretty clear.

01:06:40.770 --> 01:06:42.530
- [Detective] And your
cousin, and your sister,

01:06:42.530 --> 01:06:44.553
and your girlfriend, and your life.

01:06:46.972 --> 01:06:49.430
- [Detective] Are you ready
to tell your mom goodbye?

01:06:49.430 --> 01:06:50.420
- I guess.

01:06:50.420 --> 01:06:51.533
- [Detective] You ready?

01:06:53.115 --> 01:06:54.830
(Lorenzo crying)

01:06:54.830 --> 01:06:56.110
That\'s exactly what\'s going down.

01:06:56.110 --> 01:06:58.030
- [Detective] You wanna help yourself out

01:06:58.030 --> 01:07:00.430
and tell us what your
involvement with this was?

01:07:02.030 --> 01:07:02.863
Huh?

01:07:04.720 --> 01:07:05.553
Lorenzo?

01:07:05.553 --> 01:07:07.250
Or do you wanna sit here and cry again?

01:07:08.610 --> 01:07:09.443
Thought you were gonna

01:07:09.443 --> 01:07:10.276
stare me down a minute ago,

01:07:10.276 --> 01:07:11.109
you were that tough.

01:07:11.109 --> 01:07:12.040
Now come on.

01:07:12.040 --> 01:07:13.002
What\'s up?

01:07:13.002 --> 01:07:14.110
Who hit her first?

01:07:14.110 --> 01:07:15.080
Did you do it?

01:07:15.080 --> 01:07:16.599
You remember that night.

01:07:16.599 --> 01:07:19.432
(Lorenzo sobbing)

01:07:21.179 --> 01:07:25.626
Tell me who hit her first, Lorenzo.

01:07:25.626 --> 01:07:27.876
Tell you who hit her first.

01:07:32.923 --> 01:07:35.590
- [Detective] Whose idea was it?

01:07:36.857 --> 01:07:38.300
- [Detective] Was it your
idea to go over there?

01:07:38.300 --> 01:07:39.893
I don\'t think so.

01:07:39.893 --> 01:07:41.976
It was Nick\'s, wasn\'t it?

01:07:43.530 --> 01:07:44.947
Wasn\'t it Nick\'s?

01:07:47.970 --> 01:07:48.960
- [Detective] Lorenzo,
you\'re not leaving tonight.

01:07:48.960 --> 01:07:51.127
- [Detective] Sit up here, sit up here.

01:07:51.127 --> 01:07:51.960
You gotta sit up.

01:07:51.960 --> 01:07:52.793
Come on.

01:07:52.793 --> 01:07:53.626
Sit up in the chair.

01:07:53.626 --> 01:07:55.060
You\'re gonna fall off this chair.

01:07:55.060 --> 01:07:56.623
- [Detective] Lorenzo,
you\'re not leaving tonight.

01:07:58.550 --> 01:07:59.950
Whose idea was this?

01:08:02.310 --> 01:08:04.080
- [Detective] I don\'t
believe it was yours.

01:08:04.080 --> 01:08:04.913
I don\'t.

01:08:08.050 --> 01:08:09.000
Was it Nick\'s idea?

01:08:14.819 --> 01:08:15.652
Lorenzo.

01:08:16.870 --> 01:08:18.020
What are you scared of?

01:08:19.213 --> 01:08:21.645
Are you scared of going to prison?

01:08:21.645 --> 01:08:22.478
Huh?

01:08:33.020 --> 01:08:36.370
- [Detective] Lorenzo,
you can cry all you want.

01:08:39.790 --> 01:08:42.040
All you\'re trying to do
is avoid all of this.

01:08:44.860 --> 01:08:46.410
Was she dead when you left her?

01:08:48.140 --> 01:08:49.930
- What can an innocent person do

01:08:49.930 --> 01:08:52.160
to extricate themself from this situation?

01:08:52.160 --> 01:08:52.993
Anything?

01:08:52.993 --> 01:08:55.010
- [Jane] Well, I guess
you could hold out, right?

01:08:55.010 --> 01:08:55.843
Forever?

01:08:55.843 --> 01:08:56.676
Could you just hold out?

01:08:57.640 --> 01:08:59.085
- Doesn\'t everybody have a
breaking point at some point?

01:08:59.085 --> 01:09:00.790
- [Jane] Right, they must.

01:09:00.790 --> 01:09:03.700
- But their options leave him no option.

01:09:03.700 --> 01:09:05.380
Look what they\'re doing.

01:09:05.380 --> 01:09:07.130
What option does he have?

01:09:07.130 --> 01:09:09.520
Is there anything that he can do or say

01:09:09.520 --> 01:09:11.645
to convince them that maybe he\'s innocent?

01:09:11.645 --> 01:09:12.884
- [Jane] No.

01:09:12.884 --> 01:09:15.430
- [Detective] Is that a yes or a no?

01:09:15.430 --> 01:09:16.890
Were you outside the house

01:09:16.890 --> 01:09:18.890
while JR and Nick were inside the house?

01:09:22.392 --> 01:09:23.270
- Was I outside?

01:09:23.270 --> 01:09:24.170
- [Detective] Yes.

01:09:25.017 --> 01:09:25.850
- Yes.

01:09:28.880 --> 01:09:29.747
- [Detective] Lorenzo, you\'re this close

01:09:29.747 --> 01:09:31.913
to taking a big load off your shoulders.

01:09:33.030 --> 01:09:36.592
An unbelievable load off your shoulders.

01:09:36.592 --> 01:09:39.009
(soft music)

01:09:53.490 --> 01:09:55.910
- He was imprisoned for 14 years.

01:09:55.910 --> 01:09:57.140
So he got out at 28.

01:09:57.140 --> 01:09:59.600
He was in solitary
confinement for four years

01:09:59.600 --> 01:10:03.050
because when he goes into
grown up prison he\'s 14

01:10:03.050 --> 01:10:05.070
and he can\'t be in with
the general population.

01:10:05.070 --> 01:10:06.680
So he goes to solitary confinement

01:10:06.680 --> 01:10:09.860
for four years from 14 to 18.

01:10:09.860 --> 01:10:11.580
Lorenzo was exonerated

01:10:11.580 --> 01:10:14.110
and we have a civil rights
suite pending for him

01:10:14.110 --> 01:10:18.240
and the opposition are, you know,

01:10:18.240 --> 01:10:20.330
they\'re moving to have the case dismissed

01:10:20.330 --> 01:10:23.460
based on qualified
immunity for the police.

01:10:23.460 --> 01:10:25.800
And if you\'re being interrogated,

01:10:25.800 --> 01:10:27.290
you\'re not being interrogated

01:10:27.290 --> 01:10:29.960
because they\'re just
looking for information.

01:10:29.960 --> 01:10:31.130
You\'re being interrogated

01:10:31.130 --> 01:10:32.883
because they want you to confess.

01:10:36.700 --> 01:10:40.330
- [Jason] So, today we have a
first on Wrongful Conviction

01:10:40.330 --> 01:10:42.270
which is that we have a retired

01:10:42.270 --> 01:10:45.890
NYPD homicide detective,
among other things,

01:10:45.890 --> 01:10:47.810
a current private investigator.

01:10:47.810 --> 01:10:49.960
I\'m pleased to introduce
you, Jay Salpeter.

01:10:49.960 --> 01:10:51.350
Welcome.
- Thank you very much

01:10:51.350 --> 01:10:52.710
and thank you for having me.

01:10:52.710 --> 01:10:56.610
- [Jason] So, how the hell are
we gonna get this fixed, Jay?

01:10:56.610 --> 01:10:58.810
The legal remedy seems
like a long shot to me.

01:10:58.810 --> 01:11:01.040
It\'s gonna take forever.

01:11:01.040 --> 01:11:02.800
- Well the beginning is basically

01:11:02.800 --> 01:11:07.253
that all interrogations
are video and audio taped.

01:11:08.300 --> 01:11:10.220
I think that would stop at least

01:11:10.220 --> 01:11:12.420
75% of these false confessions.

01:11:12.420 --> 01:11:14.370
I don\'t know how you\'re
gonna get away with it.

01:11:14.370 --> 01:11:16.070
And maybe the criminal justice system

01:11:16.070 --> 01:11:18.090
has to start looking at prosecutors.

01:11:18.090 --> 01:11:21.440
Believe me, you would stop
false confessions faster

01:11:21.440 --> 01:11:25.233
with making laws that
make prosecutor culpable.

01:11:26.436 --> 01:11:27.450
- I mean that\'s the frustration

01:11:27.450 --> 01:11:28.600
with the civil rights work

01:11:28.600 --> 01:11:30.010
is that the prosecutors

01:11:30.010 --> 01:11:31.700
are always absolutely immune.

01:11:31.700 --> 01:11:33.110
It doesn\'t matter what they did.

01:11:33.110 --> 01:11:34.170
They could\'ve gone in there

01:11:34.170 --> 01:11:35.960
and punched the kid in the face

01:11:35.960 --> 01:11:39.830
and we cannot get any
liability against them.

01:11:39.830 --> 01:11:42.010
- [Jay] And of course, with lying,

01:11:42.010 --> 01:11:44.680
police are allowed to use trickery.

01:11:44.680 --> 01:11:46.650
And I know every defense attorney

01:11:46.650 --> 01:11:48.610
in the world is against that.

01:11:48.610 --> 01:11:49.443
- [Jane] Yeah.

01:11:49.443 --> 01:11:53.020
- [Jay] But it\'s still, the
Supreme Court says we can.

01:11:53.020 --> 01:11:54.500
So I\'m a detective.

01:11:54.500 --> 01:11:57.040
You don\'t want me to
shoot, take my gun away.

01:11:57.040 --> 01:11:59.960
You don\'t want me to lie,
take that away from me.

01:11:59.960 --> 01:12:02.305
But while it\'s still on the table,

01:12:02.305 --> 01:12:05.703
you giving us the ammunition
so we\'re gonna use it.

01:12:38.020 --> 01:12:40.040
- [Jane] We went to
Amherst police department

01:12:40.040 --> 01:12:42.020
and spent about three hours there

01:12:42.020 --> 01:12:43.010
looking at all the evidence.

01:12:43.010 --> 01:12:43.890
They still have it.

01:12:43.890 --> 01:12:45.100
So what we\'re hoping,

01:12:45.100 --> 01:12:47.560
now that we know the
evidence is all there,

01:12:47.560 --> 01:12:49.260
we can start writing this,

01:12:49.260 --> 01:12:51.350
it\'s gonna be like a giant brief,

01:12:51.350 --> 01:12:53.670
to the district attorney\'s office

01:12:53.670 --> 01:12:56.490
to say why we think they should retest it.

01:12:56.490 --> 01:12:57.770
- [Rinaldo] Okay.

01:12:57.770 --> 01:12:59.520
- I know it seems like a long time.

01:13:00.557 --> 01:13:02.390
- It\'s been 20 years.

01:13:02.390 --> 01:13:03.223
- [Jane] I know.

01:13:03.223 --> 01:13:04.056
- Six months.

01:13:04.056 --> 01:13:05.310
I mean, I\'m not doing the time.

01:13:05.310 --> 01:13:06.200
It\'s my mom.

01:13:06.200 --> 01:13:08.763
She wants to get out fast as possible.

01:13:10.100 --> 01:13:14.330
Unfortunately, life goes
on here outside of the bars

01:13:14.330 --> 01:13:17.430
and we just have to be
patient and wait, you know.

01:13:19.790 --> 01:13:20.623
- Yeah.

01:13:21.840 --> 01:13:23.336
How old were you again?

01:13:23.336 --> 01:13:24.568
- I was around 15.

01:13:24.568 --> 01:13:25.623
- [Jane] Okay.

01:13:25.623 --> 01:13:27.290
15, that\'s young.

01:13:27.290 --> 01:13:30.614
And where did you go
once she got arrested?

01:13:30.614 --> 01:13:31.530
(Rinaldo laughs)

01:13:31.530 --> 01:13:32.877
- Nowhere.

01:13:32.877 --> 01:13:34.724
I had to take care of myself.

01:13:34.724 --> 01:13:36.690
- [Jane] Did you just live
there in that same place?

01:13:36.690 --> 01:13:38.951
How did you pay the rent?

01:13:38.951 --> 01:13:41.610
(Rinaldo laughs)

01:13:41.610 --> 01:13:42.860
- My mother\'s a criminal.

01:13:44.600 --> 01:13:47.010
I hang around her all the time.

01:13:47.010 --> 01:13:49.264
I couldn\'t take care of myself.

01:13:49.264 --> 01:13:50.779
I just had to do what I had to do

01:13:50.779 --> 01:13:53.790
and when I was old enough
to go away to college

01:13:53.790 --> 01:13:55.590
I went away to mortuary school.

01:13:55.590 --> 01:13:56.423
I was on my own.

01:13:56.423 --> 01:13:57.770
- I mean, it\'s amazing that you even had

01:13:57.770 --> 01:13:59.143
the strength to do that.

01:13:59.143 --> 01:14:00.400
- [Rinaldo] It\'s a lifestyle.

01:14:00.400 --> 01:14:01.950
My mother\'d been on drugs all my life.

01:14:01.950 --> 01:14:05.458
So, being at home alone wasn\'t new.

01:14:05.458 --> 01:14:06.970
- [Jane] Did you get to go visit her?

01:14:06.970 --> 01:14:08.400
- [Rinaldo] Mm-hmm.

01:14:08.400 --> 01:14:09.669
- [Jane] Do you still now?

01:14:09.669 --> 01:14:10.840
- [Rinaldo] Yeah.

01:14:10.840 --> 01:14:12.427
- [Jane] Has she seen your kids before?

01:14:12.427 --> 01:14:13.260
- Yeah, yeah.

01:14:13.260 --> 01:14:14.700
I just took \'em out there.

01:14:14.700 --> 01:14:15.650
Just took \'em out there.

01:14:15.650 --> 01:14:17.318
My daughter looks exactly like her.

01:14:17.318 --> 01:14:18.151
- [Jane] Oh really?

01:14:18.151 --> 01:14:20.210
- Yeah, exactly like her.

01:14:20.210 --> 01:14:21.050
Mm-hmm.

01:14:21.050 --> 01:14:21.883
- That\'s good.

01:14:21.883 --> 01:14:22.880
Were you mad at your mom

01:14:22.880 --> 01:14:25.740
that she made this confession
to all this nonsense?

01:14:25.740 --> 01:14:27.568
- Oh, for years.

01:14:27.568 --> 01:14:30.173
For years, for years, for years.

01:14:30.173 --> 01:14:31.584
- [Jane] Did you say that to her?

01:14:31.584 --> 01:14:32.417
- [Rinaldo] Mm-hmm.

01:14:32.417 --> 01:14:33.600
- [Jane] What did you say?

01:14:34.581 --> 01:14:36.320
- I said \"What are you doin\'

01:14:36.320 --> 01:14:38.773
talking to the police in the first place?\"

01:14:38.773 --> 01:14:40.820
- I mean, I assume that you believe

01:14:40.820 --> 01:14:42.040
that she did not do this.

01:14:42.040 --> 01:14:43.660
- [Rinaldo] Yeah, I know she didn\'t do it.

01:14:43.660 --> 01:14:45.063
- So how, I mean, I don\'t understand

01:14:45.063 --> 01:14:48.220
how you could live with that for so long.

01:14:48.220 --> 01:14:49.483
Like how that feels.

01:14:50.500 --> 01:14:52.163
To just know she\'s in there.

01:14:58.520 --> 01:14:59.880
- It\'s just unfair.

01:14:59.880 --> 01:15:00.713
What can I say?

01:15:00.713 --> 01:15:01.546
I don\'t know.

01:15:01.546 --> 01:15:02.660
You just dealt with the cards.

01:15:03.570 --> 01:15:05.980
There\'s a lot of things
that\'s unfair, you know.

01:15:05.980 --> 01:15:06.813
- [Jane] Right.

01:15:11.417 --> 01:15:13.780
- How I look at it is just kinda,

01:15:13.780 --> 01:15:18.140
it\'s all set up that way, you know.

01:15:22.548 --> 01:15:25.450
It\'s just society, I guess, you know.

01:15:25.450 --> 01:15:28.510
Crooked court system.

01:15:28.510 --> 01:15:31.090
Crooked police officers.

01:15:31.090 --> 01:15:31.963
Money.

01:15:33.578 --> 01:15:34.411
- [Jane] Yeah.

01:15:34.411 --> 01:15:37.720
But you seem very not bitter
which is pretty amazing.

01:15:37.720 --> 01:15:39.012
- I think I\'m just numb.

01:15:39.012 --> 01:15:40.453
(laughs)

01:15:40.453 --> 01:15:43.162
I think I\'m just desensitized to it.

01:15:43.162 --> 01:15:44.159
- [Jane] It\'s been so long.

01:15:44.159 --> 01:15:44.998
- Yeah.

01:15:44.998 --> 01:15:49.839
I mean, I don\'t know.

01:15:49.839 --> 01:15:50.672
I don\'t know.

01:15:50.672 --> 01:15:51.760
I mean, I just try to make

01:15:51.760 --> 01:15:54.240
a better way for my kids, for my children

01:15:54.240 --> 01:15:56.610
and make sure that they
don\'t have to suffer

01:15:56.610 --> 01:15:58.723
and endure what I\'ve went through.

01:15:59.770 --> 01:16:00.890
I know that\'s kinda like

01:16:00.890 --> 01:16:02.435
what my mother was trying to do for us

01:16:02.435 --> 01:16:04.328
but she went a different route.

01:16:04.328 --> 01:16:05.937
- [Jane] Right.

01:16:05.937 --> 01:16:09.310
It\'s hard to get out of those drugs.

01:16:09.310 --> 01:16:10.650
Well, you should be proud of yourself.

01:16:10.650 --> 01:16:11.880
I\'m sure she\'s proud of you.

01:16:11.880 --> 01:16:13.373
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:16:14.220 --> 01:16:15.053
I\'ve had my mistakes.

01:16:15.053 --> 01:16:16.530
I\'ve made my mistakes too.

01:16:16.530 --> 01:16:17.510
- [Jane] Everybody does.

01:16:17.510 --> 01:16:19.243
She talks about you a lot to me.

01:16:21.310 --> 01:16:23.413
I hope you reunite in person.

01:16:25.090 --> 01:16:27.408
I hope that we can make
that happen for you.

01:16:27.408 --> 01:16:28.872
- Yeah.

01:16:28.872 --> 01:16:31.289
(soft music)

01:16:33.780 --> 01:16:35.800
- [Jane] There\'s viewings
everyday for family members?

01:16:35.800 --> 01:16:36.777
- Mm-hmm, yeah.
- Oh, cool.

01:16:36.777 --> 01:16:37.610
- Yeah, we usually do the viewings

01:16:37.610 --> 01:16:39.993
a day before the funeral or a day or two.

01:16:41.200 --> 01:16:43.090
We got one funeral tomorrow that\'s for her

01:16:43.090 --> 01:16:45.250
so we got a viewing today

01:16:45.250 --> 01:16:48.053
and then my cousin actually got killed.

01:16:48.890 --> 01:16:50.950
Just happened like two days ago.

01:16:50.950 --> 01:16:52.372
So we\'re waiting for him to come in.

01:16:52.372 --> 01:16:53.344
I don\'t really know him.

01:16:53.344 --> 01:16:54.340
I just know him, they called me--

01:16:54.340 --> 01:16:55.247
- [Michael] Car accident?

01:16:55.247 --> 01:16:57.910
- No, no, he got shot in the chest.

01:16:57.910 --> 01:16:59.413
Yeah, so.

01:17:02.174 --> 01:17:03.007
- [Michael] That\'s hard.

01:17:03.007 --> 01:17:03.840
- Yeah.

01:17:10.846 --> 01:17:15.846
(radio chattering)
(soft music)

01:17:33.510 --> 01:17:36.248
So we talked about how
out of these four cases,

01:17:36.248 --> 01:17:40.240
Korey and Malthe and Lorenzo
have all been exonerated

01:17:40.240 --> 01:17:43.810
but Renay, her case remains active

01:17:43.810 --> 01:17:46.970
and she\'s been in prison now for 20 years.

01:17:46.970 --> 01:17:48.933
Her son grew up without a mom.

01:17:50.870 --> 01:17:53.140
She has grandkids now that she\'s never met

01:17:53.140 --> 01:17:55.853
other than on a phone through glass.

01:17:59.010 --> 01:18:01.830
She\'s had two heart attacks
while she\'s been in prison

01:18:01.830 --> 01:18:03.622
and is probably not getting

01:18:03.622 --> 01:18:05.610
the right medical treatment for that.

01:18:05.610 --> 01:18:09.220
You know, we\'re just hoping
that time could be on our side

01:18:09.220 --> 01:18:12.220
and we can get her out
sooner rather than later.

01:18:12.220 --> 01:18:17.000
But I mean, she is a life
that\'s wasted, right?

01:18:18.370 --> 01:18:21.510
I mean, she\'s never gonna
make up for those 20 years.

01:18:21.510 --> 01:18:23.140
Her son and her grandkids

01:18:23.140 --> 01:18:24.020
are not gonna make up

01:18:24.020 --> 01:18:25.724
for not having a mom or a grandmother

01:18:25.724 --> 01:18:27.803
even if she does get out now.

01:18:29.282 --> 01:18:31.710
(phone ringing)

01:18:31.710 --> 01:18:32.610
- [Woman] Thank you for calling

01:18:32.610 --> 01:18:34.933
Bedford Hills Correctional Facility.

01:18:37.094 --> 01:18:38.480
- [Woman] Bedford, may I help you?

01:18:38.480 --> 01:18:40.670
- Hi, this is Jane Fisher-Byrialsen.

01:18:40.670 --> 01:18:41.790
I\'m an attorney for Renay Lynch.

01:18:41.790 --> 01:18:42.653
We have a call.

01:18:43.596 --> 01:18:44.870
- [Woman] Who\'s this with?

01:18:44.870 --> 01:18:46.800
- Renay Lynch.

01:18:46.800 --> 01:18:47.810
- [Woman] Oh yeah, yeah.

01:18:47.810 --> 01:18:48.643
Hold on.

01:18:48.643 --> 01:18:49.476
- Okay.

01:18:53.480 --> 01:18:54.843
- [Renay] Hi, good morning.

01:18:54.843 --> 01:18:56.574
- Good morning, how are you?

01:18:56.574 --> 01:18:57.797
- [Renay] Oh, so-so.

01:18:57.797 --> 01:19:00.403
Just taking it slow, you know.

01:19:02.140 --> 01:19:04.940
Rinaldo told me he met with you.

01:19:04.940 --> 01:19:05.857
- Yeah, he did.

01:19:05.857 --> 01:19:07.570
- [Renay] Thank you so much for, you know,

01:19:07.570 --> 01:19:11.680
just taking the time and go by there.

01:19:11.680 --> 01:19:13.363
- How is your heart?

01:19:14.330 --> 01:19:17.580
- [Renay] Well, I\'m trying to get healthy

01:19:17.580 --> 01:19:20.030
and take my medication.

01:19:20.030 --> 01:19:22.773
But here I am because I\'m a jackass.

01:19:23.750 --> 01:19:25.569
I\'m tired, my son\'s getting so old.

01:19:25.569 --> 01:19:27.569
I wanna get out of here.

01:19:29.117 --> 01:19:30.226
Jane, please forgive me.

01:19:30.226 --> 01:19:33.605
I\'ve just been under a
lot of stress lately.

01:19:33.605 --> 01:19:34.438
That\'s all.

01:19:34.438 --> 01:19:37.688
I\'m just so thankful but oh Lord Jesus.

01:19:39.930 --> 01:19:41.330
- I know.

01:19:41.330 --> 01:19:43.090
- [Renay] Pull myself together.

01:19:43.090 --> 01:19:44.370
- You don\'t have to
pull yourself together.

01:19:44.370 --> 01:19:47.010
It\'s okay, I understand it\'s so difficult.

01:19:47.010 --> 01:19:49.220
And I know that it\'s taking a lot of time

01:19:49.220 --> 01:19:53.270
but we don\'t wanna mess it up, Renay.

01:19:53.270 --> 01:19:55.583
We are only gonna get one shot at this.

01:19:59.730 --> 01:20:01.253
So just hang in there.

01:20:02.830 --> 01:20:03.663
- [Renay] Okay.

01:20:03.663 --> 01:20:05.240
- I promise you there will be an end.

01:20:05.240 --> 01:20:07.683
I hope it\'s a good one
but there will be an end.

01:20:10.002 --> 01:20:12.419
(soft music)

01:20:13.380 --> 01:20:14.890
We\'re still in a phase on the case

01:20:14.890 --> 01:20:16.910
where it\'s really hard to tell

01:20:16.910 --> 01:20:18.723
if it\'s gonna go good or bad.

01:20:20.370 --> 01:20:23.453
And even though it\'s been
three years since we started,

01:20:24.400 --> 01:20:25.720
it could take three more

01:20:25.720 --> 01:20:27.630
before we know if she\'ll ever be free.

01:20:31.383 --> 01:20:34.133
(sirens wailing)

01:20:50.767 --> 01:20:54.434
(speaking foreign language)

01:21:11.060 --> 01:21:14.056
(speaking foreign language)

01:21:14.056 --> 01:21:17.723
(speaking foreign language)

01:21:18.816 --> 01:21:22.131
(speaking foreign language)

01:21:22.131 --> 01:21:25.798
(speaking foreign language)

01:22:06.300 --> 01:22:10.210
- Does he in any way blame himself for--

01:22:10.210 --> 01:22:11.043
- [Jane] I think so.

01:22:11.043 --> 01:22:12.760
- Capitulating and confessing.

01:22:12.760 --> 01:22:13.940
- [Jane] I think they all do a little bit.

01:22:13.940 --> 01:22:14.945
- My own observations

01:22:14.945 --> 01:22:17.630
from talking to wrongfully
convicted people

01:22:17.630 --> 01:22:20.900
is those who are wrongfully
convicted by confession

01:22:20.900 --> 01:22:22.310
are not doing as well.

01:22:22.310 --> 01:22:24.560
The stigma they attach to themselves.

01:22:24.560 --> 01:22:26.570
They feel weak, they feel stupid,

01:22:26.570 --> 01:22:27.960
they don\'t understand what happened,

01:22:27.960 --> 01:22:30.190
how they could\'ve done that to themselves.

01:22:30.190 --> 01:22:33.060
And even when the
conviction was overturned,

01:22:33.060 --> 01:22:34.850
if the reason they were convicted

01:22:34.850 --> 01:22:37.320
was a confession as
opposed to something else,

01:22:37.320 --> 01:22:40.910
the stigma that attached to them stayed

01:22:40.910 --> 01:22:42.670
even after they were exonerated.

01:22:42.670 --> 01:22:45.680
People are not quite 100% sure.

01:22:45.680 --> 01:22:46.960
The confession is so powerful

01:22:46.960 --> 01:22:49.710
that even after it\'s supposed
to evaporate, it doesn\'t.

01:22:50.859 --> 01:22:53.276
(soft music)

01:22:56.160 --> 01:22:57.730
- I think, you know, we were talking about

01:22:57.730 --> 01:23:01.460
how this effects people and damages them.

01:23:01.460 --> 01:23:03.423
You know, I found,

01:23:04.570 --> 01:23:06.810
especially with Malthe and Korey,

01:23:06.810 --> 01:23:09.730
that there\'s so much shame involved

01:23:09.730 --> 01:23:13.210
with telling on yourself,
telling a lie on yourself,

01:23:13.210 --> 01:23:15.030
that it\'s very hard,

01:23:15.030 --> 01:23:16.460
when we interview them about it

01:23:16.460 --> 01:23:17.420
or talk to them about it,

01:23:17.420 --> 01:23:18.650
it\'s extremely hard for them

01:23:18.650 --> 01:23:21.040
to articulate why or how it happened

01:23:21.040 --> 01:23:23.430
because they\'re so ashamed

01:23:23.430 --> 01:23:26.740
that they were tricked and
deceived and fell for it.

01:23:26.740 --> 01:23:30.743
I mean, I think it\'s very
humiliating and embarrassing.

01:23:32.892 --> 01:23:35.642
(sirens wailing)

01:23:45.520 --> 01:23:46.741
- [TV Reporter] From Japan we travel

01:23:46.741 --> 01:23:50.054
to another key American ally in Asia.

01:23:50.054 --> 01:23:52.262
The Republic or Korea.

01:23:52.262 --> 01:23:54.012
Unofficial statement.

01:24:04.210 --> 01:24:07.870
- So Korey today is,
he\'s living well, right?

01:24:07.870 --> 01:24:09.150
He got a huge settlement

01:24:09.150 --> 01:24:12.547
but it doesn\'t take away
those demons in his head.

01:24:12.547 --> 01:24:16.010
He was in from 16 to almost 30.

01:24:16.010 --> 01:24:18.120
So what are you now when you come out?

01:24:18.120 --> 01:24:21.980
He\'s never gonna have
the mental peace and rest

01:24:21.980 --> 01:24:25.550
that you and I can probably
accomplish sometimes.

01:24:25.550 --> 01:24:29.823
But he has lost his whole family.

01:24:30.830 --> 01:24:33.003
There\'s no relationship with them really.

01:24:34.220 --> 01:24:36.397
And that\'s something that the NYPD

01:24:36.397 --> 01:24:37.980
and the city and the prosecutors

01:24:37.980 --> 01:24:39.330
took away from him, right,

01:24:39.330 --> 01:24:40.863
that money can\'t replace.

01:24:49.590 --> 01:24:51.703
- Penitentiary life is a graveyard.

01:24:53.280 --> 01:24:56.733
From the old me to now is what
you call life after death.

01:25:05.990 --> 01:25:07.694
You have to roll with your situation

01:25:07.694 --> 01:25:09.820
and become something that you

01:25:09.820 --> 01:25:12.303
never thought you would
become which is a survivor.

01:25:16.100 --> 01:25:17.123
It can,

01:25:20.100 --> 01:25:21.803
it can make you or break you.

01:25:22.730 --> 01:25:23.693
It\'s up to you.

01:25:25.030 --> 01:25:26.603
But like I say, you know,

01:25:28.570 --> 01:25:30.881
when coming back to society,

01:25:30.881 --> 01:25:33.980
you don\'t know what to do with the change.

01:25:33.980 --> 01:25:36.100
You don\'t know what to do with it.

01:25:36.100 --> 01:25:38.913
So, it sort of locks your brain.

01:25:41.400 --> 01:25:45.423
Wake up in the morning
to start all over again.

01:25:48.130 --> 01:25:49.677
Start your journey all over again

01:25:49.677 --> 01:25:51.127
whatever that journey may be.

01:25:53.300 --> 01:25:56.110
You can go on outside or
just stand in the house

01:25:56.110 --> 01:25:57.793
looking out the window.

01:26:01.500 --> 01:26:02.433
Being free.

01:26:07.200 --> 01:26:12.200
- It really is a problem
that is systemic, right?

01:26:14.980 --> 01:26:18.920
It\'s a problem that victimizes
a lot of people, right?

01:26:18.920 --> 01:26:23.920
You have the person who falsely confesses

01:26:24.220 --> 01:26:26.020
whose life is ruined.

01:26:26.020 --> 01:26:30.500
You have their family
whose lives are ruined.

01:26:30.500 --> 01:26:33.200
You have the victim,
if they\'re still alive,

01:26:33.200 --> 01:26:34.580
and the victim\'s family

01:26:34.580 --> 01:26:36.640
who think they\'re getting
justice but they\'re not.

01:26:36.640 --> 01:26:37.473
- [Jay] Of course not.

01:26:37.473 --> 01:26:40.490
- And then you have
multiple other problems

01:26:40.490 --> 01:26:41.680
that come from this.

01:26:41.680 --> 01:26:44.830
Main one being that by definition

01:26:44.830 --> 01:26:46.320
when we lock up the wrong guy

01:26:46.320 --> 01:26:48.330
we stop looking for the right guy.

01:26:48.330 --> 01:26:52.713
It\'s really a tremendous challenge.

01:26:53.950 --> 01:26:55.620
- [Jane] I think it\'s a cultural problem.

01:26:55.620 --> 01:26:58.730
We need a whole societal
education about this.

01:26:58.730 --> 01:27:00.160
Our criminal justice system

01:27:00.160 --> 01:27:02.310
is based on the premise that it\'s better

01:27:02.310 --> 01:27:05.060
for 10 guilty people to go free

01:27:05.060 --> 01:27:07.550
than one innocent person
to go to prison, right?

01:27:07.550 --> 01:27:09.960
I mean that is a fundamental concept

01:27:09.960 --> 01:27:12.040
of the American justice system.

01:27:12.040 --> 01:27:13.553
But I think that the lying

01:27:13.553 --> 01:27:16.030
is one of the main things

01:27:16.030 --> 01:27:18.390
that overbears somebody\'s will.

01:27:18.390 --> 01:27:20.293
I just guess the courts don\'t get it.

01:27:21.730 --> 01:27:23.280
- Every story of a false confession

01:27:23.280 --> 01:27:25.350
is not just a story that
gets to the question

01:27:25.350 --> 01:27:27.740
of why in God\'s name
did an innocent person

01:27:27.740 --> 01:27:30.230
confess to a crime he
or she didn\'t commit.

01:27:30.230 --> 01:27:31.230
It\'s a second story

01:27:31.230 --> 01:27:32.800
and the second storyline is

01:27:32.800 --> 01:27:35.060
how come the prosector,
the judge, the jury,

01:27:35.060 --> 01:27:36.660
the appeals court all missed it?

01:27:38.390 --> 01:27:40.200
There is now ample research,

01:27:40.200 --> 01:27:43.170
actual cases, laboratory
studies, field studies,

01:27:43.170 --> 01:27:46.250
and 100 plus years of
basic psychology tells us

01:27:46.250 --> 01:27:48.020
when you lie to people about evidence,

01:27:48.020 --> 01:27:49.960
when you lie to people about reality,

01:27:49.960 --> 01:27:51.380
you can change their perceptions,

01:27:51.380 --> 01:27:52.780
you can change their memories,

01:27:52.780 --> 01:27:54.470
you can change just about every aspect

01:27:54.470 --> 01:27:56.230
of their cognitive function.

01:27:56.230 --> 01:27:57.860
Everybody\'s human, everybody\'s mortal,

01:27:57.860 --> 01:27:59.840
everybody has a breaking point.

01:28:05.620 --> 01:28:07.330
- In Renay\'s case we\'ve now gathered

01:28:07.330 --> 01:28:10.220
all the information we could possibly find

01:28:10.220 --> 01:28:13.200
and we\'re ready to file motions in court

01:28:13.200 --> 01:28:14.750
but this is only the first step

01:28:14.750 --> 01:28:16.563
in a long, long journey.

01:28:17.440 --> 01:28:19.510
Renay has lost decades of her life

01:28:19.510 --> 01:28:21.230
for something she didn\'t do

01:28:21.230 --> 01:28:23.550
and she deserves to spend every minute

01:28:23.550 --> 01:28:25.250
of the rest of it with her family.

01:28:35.720 --> 01:28:38.390
- [Rinaldo] You wish your
grandma was here everyday?

01:28:38.390 --> 01:28:39.240
- [Girl] Yeah.

01:28:39.240 --> 01:28:41.733
Because she\'s nice and kind.

01:28:42.823 --> 01:28:45.302
We love her so much.

01:28:45.302 --> 01:28:47.899
- And you look like her.

01:28:47.899 --> 01:28:48.732
- Whoa.

01:28:52.075 --> 01:28:55.027
(horn honking)

01:28:55.027 --> 01:28:55.860
Daddy!

01:28:58.746 --> 01:29:01.663
(Rinaldo laughing)

01:29:02.652 --> 01:29:04.819
- [Rinaldo] I know, right?

01:29:05.940 --> 01:29:08.350
- Can we see a whole movie?

01:29:08.350 --> 01:29:11.100
- [Rinaldo] Soon baby, very soon.

01:29:12.092 --> 01:29:12.925
- Daddy.

01:29:14.776 --> 01:29:17.193
(soft music)