WEBVTT

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(rumbling)

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(whooshing)

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(record crackling)

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(singing in a Torres Strait
language)

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(tense music)

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- [Narrator, female] This is
a man from a land

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of lost content, and lost content.

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Ephraim Bani from Torres Strait,
an expert

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on the myths and legends
of his island home.

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He has never seen these
objects, few people ever have.

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We are filming them
for the first time.

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(tense music)

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Ephraim told me that
his were the only people

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to make such elaborate turtle
shell masks,

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yet there are none in Torres
Strait today.

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During the last century,
objects like these

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poured into the world\'s
greatest museums,

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used at first for
scientific inquiry,

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the same objects were later
hailed as art.

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Ephraim told me he thought
we in the west

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prized them for their beauty alone.

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Some, he said, might even imagine

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they saw something else,
something deeper.

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I wonder why he said that.

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With Europe\'s museums
on my doorstep,

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all the cultures of the world
are within easy reach, for me.

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But how do museums cope
with this vast legacy?

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What is their rationale
for the future?

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Can curators tell me what
museums are really about?

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And what happens when
a descendant

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of the original owners sets out,

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armed with his diary and
his own reasons,

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to encounter his heritage?

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(gentle music)

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(singing in a Torres Strait
language)

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(upbeat music)

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- I am Ephraim Bani,
direct descendant

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to King Bani of Wagadagam.

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The line of chiefs ran
through the eldest sons,

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and through that line, I am
the current chief at Mabuiag.

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My islands, the Torres
Strait Islands,

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are situated in between
the continent

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of Australia and Papua New Guinea.

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We developed a unique culture,

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\'til there was an influx
from outside.

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They came to exploit
the pearl shells.

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Lots of changes took place,

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and then the missionaries came.

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They told us to abandoned
some of the practices,

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and our culture was slowly
declining.

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Then the anthropologist
came and do research,

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and there were collections
going on during

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that time of our old artefacts.

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The art went away with all
those objects.

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I\'d imagine my ancestor sitting,

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carving this thing out.

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He don\'t even know it will
end up

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inside a glass case, with
people staring at it.

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He don\'t know.

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He just think,
for the present time,

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here it is and he feel
proud, he\'s taken it.

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(singing in a Torres Strait
language)

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We were organised that
a social life

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was meant to function property,

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and lots of people were starting

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to turn away from observing
the culture.

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(singing in a Torres Strait
language)

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I invented this motto in language.

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It\'s in Kalaw Lagaw Ya.

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It says (in Kalaw Lagaw Ya
language).

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It means, \"a fire was lit
in the past,

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it\'s still burning, but
the woods are burning out\".

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My job is to put the wood in,

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keep the fire burning,
and put in new ones,

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so the fire don\'t go out.

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And that is how I see preserving

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our culture into perpetuity.

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(speaking in a Torres Strait
language)

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- [Woman] Well bring \'em here.

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(speaking in a Torres Strait
language)

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- [Ephraim] We know today
that there are contemporary

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objects used in dances to
portray modern history,

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but structurally, it doesn\'t have

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the same significance of
ancient masks.

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Somewhere along the line,
we somehow

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lost the skills and techniques
of creating

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the ancient work of art.

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There\'s a gap in the history.

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(speaking in a Torres Strait
language)

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(drumming music)

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(speaking in a Torres Strait
language)

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(speaking in a Torres Strait
language)

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27th of May.

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I am going to Europe.

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I have this mission to go
and seek these things

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in the great museums,
and with the camera

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it will be like an eye
from Torres Strait

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entering into the museum itself,

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to behold the things that has been

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taken away long time ago.

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I hope to negotiate if they can

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release these objects,
even if it is only

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for an exhibition in Australia.

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(dramatic music)

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I wonder how they are going
to accept me.

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Not to worry, they are civilised.

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(organ music)

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Hello.

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- Welcome.

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Welcome to Glasgow Museums.

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- Thank you very much.

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- Delighted that you\'ve come
all this way

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to see our collections
from your islands.

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- Yes.

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- We\'re particularly delighted that

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it\'s going to be filmed.

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- Yes.

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- And that\'s it\'s then
for posterity,

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you\'ll be able to take
all that back with you.

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- This is real, really
pleased to visit.

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Actually, we\'re the first
Torres Strait

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Islanders here to see
this collection,

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British collection and
whatever you have here.

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It is really exciting to be here.

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- [Stewart] We\'re here in this
wonderful Victorian building,

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which houses all our collections.

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- [Ephraim] Magnificent,
magnificent.

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- And of course the collections

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from the Torres Islands
came here

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in the era of Victoria,
and have been

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here ever since, which is
marvellous.

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(paper rustling)

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- That\'s exactly like a kilt

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in Scottish, that\'s what it is.

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It doesn\'t go on the breast.

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- [Antonia] No, it\'s lower.

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- Yeah, it\'s lower.

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- [Antonia] Right.

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- It\'s to protect the groin.

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- [Antonia] Right.

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And we\'ve unwrapped,
specially for you to see

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the two most important pieces,

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two turtle posts from Dauan
near Mer.

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What do you think?

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- Could you be able to tell me

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how those things came to
be here, to the collection?

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- It\'s all due to a man
called Robert Bruce,

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who lived on Murray Island.

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It\'s the expatriate,
thinking of his

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home town, Glasgow,
and so he made

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a donation, basically,
it was a gift.

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Yeah, if we put the box
on the table.

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Now the easiest thing to do
is actually,

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Ephraim, if you get round there,

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and what we can do is yeah,
that\'ll work.

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That\'s it.

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There we are.

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Right.

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Then we can swivel it how
you want it.

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The large Saibai masks are probably,

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after the turtle posts,
the best thing

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in the Bruce collection.

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This is probably the best one.

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For some reason, this
one is down in store,

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and the one on display has
actually

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lost more of its face painting.

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What I really like about this one

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is the red wool tufts that have

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been put in for the eyebrows.

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And even when you\'re at
quite a long distance away,

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it looks really stunning,
it really

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catches your attention.

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But I like the feathers
on this one. (laughing)

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The black feathers that remain--

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- That were embedded.

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- [Antonia] So what
you\'re seeing is the core

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remains of the mask, rather
than actually

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how it would have looked originally.

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- [Ephraim] Yes.

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- This museum returned Australian

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Aboriginal skeleton
material, and we are waiting

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on an official request,
it\'s from Murray Island,

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that we have remains.

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We really are waiting
for a request

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that will not just say
please can we have it back,

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but say we want these back
because,

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and we are going to do this
with them,

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instead of you keeping them here.

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Part of your whole
filming is just at least

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for these items to maybe
become more mainstream

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in people\'s general
everyday life out there,

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because in some ways,
that\'s the saddest thing,

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not that the items are
here, but that people

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have not been thinking about
them at all.

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- 15th of September.

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Glasgow.

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This museum holds wonderful
collections

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from the Torres Strait.

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We are the first Torres
Strait islanders

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to see these things.

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This museum is willing to release

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the human skull to Murray Island,

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but so far there is still
resistance

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on the release of other objects.

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(tense music)

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- Whatever happens in
the museum,

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and it doesn\'t need
people to make it happen,

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it happens because the
thing is there. (laughing)

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Whatever happens there is
something

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to do with our relationship,
I suppose,

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to stuff, to anything.

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Why those particular objects are

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in a particular museum
I don\'t think matters,

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it\'s to do with our relationship

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with stuff, because stuff
is the only

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manifestation that isn\'t words.

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If you took away words,
just do away

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with words, what are
you left with?

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Nothing.

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We are nothing if you have
no words,

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except for stuff, stuff
will always be there.

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Stuff works.

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We don\'t know how it works,
but it works,

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particularly when it\'s
in a state of decay.

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Torres Straits, they\'re
Pacific Islanders,

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they\'ve got a concept of manner.

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They\'ve got a fairly
elaborate spiritual

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relationship with stuff.

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They actually, for generations,

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they thought about stuff
and the power

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that it can wield just
by being itself.

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Taboo, mana - these are
concepts which relate

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human beings to the
material that surrounds us.

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We lost, at some point,
I think somewhere

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in the 15th, 16th century,
we disengaged

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from stuff, and we got hung
up on words.

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Museums are really just,
they\'re the thin

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silk and chord that ties
us back to that stage

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when we had a relationship
with stuff.

00:20:18.480 --> 00:20:22.160
(dramatic orchestral music)

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- [Ephraim] Brighton.

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I am told the museums are places

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where things are stored for
the future, but what future?

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Whose future?

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I wonder about how the museums
present us

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to the world in general.

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I hate the idea of them giving

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a false impression of us
to the public.

00:20:59.840 --> 00:21:03.320
(gentle orchestral music)

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There\'s lots of people
lying around

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on the beach here, lots
of bodies in a row.

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Wonder, do they have homes?

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Or are they homeless?

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What are they looking for now?

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I hope I\'m not sitting on top
of a bomb.

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(wind pipe music)

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- Quite comfortable.

00:22:21.520 --> 00:22:24.600
(upbeat pipe music)

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I had no inroad into
Torres Strait culture,

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until filming here on
the beach that

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you presented these objects
to me,

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and they fire a whole string
of questions,

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which of a much wider implications

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and really open up all
different areas of your culture.

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- That would happen to a person
you don\'t know, you know.

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This thing might be sitting there,

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someone says, what\'s it for?

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And then the conversation begins.

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- Yes.

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And that\'s why it\'s,
I think, also very easy

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to see that they embody memories,

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and histories, and those
histories are

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set free as a result of
that conversation.

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But what we then need to do
is to see

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how museums can more effectively

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convey the conversations,
and the memories,

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rather than just the
material object itself.

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There\'s an old western prejudice

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in anthropology, and in a lot
of museum

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displays that the west has history,

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and non-western peoples
are people without history.

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They have something called
tradition,

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or legend, or myth, but it\'s
on a lesser

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level than history, which
the world possesses.

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And by denying or editing
out material

00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:54.440
like this from museum collections,

00:23:54.440 --> 00:23:56.240
you\'re also confirming a view that

00:23:56.240 --> 00:23:58.160
non-western people don\'t
have history.

00:23:59.040 --> 00:24:00.720
So I think material
like this is absolutely

00:24:00.720 --> 00:24:03.640
important and crucial to
have in museum displays,

00:24:03.640 --> 00:24:06.480
testaments to the cultures
being alive

00:24:06.480 --> 00:24:08.600
and dynamic culture,
and evolving,

00:24:08.600 --> 00:24:10.840
and participate in world history.

00:24:10.840 --> 00:24:11.960
- Yes, yes.

00:24:11.960 --> 00:24:14.000
You have to leave your footprints,

00:24:14.000 --> 00:24:15.640
and that\'s the knowledge and
the meaning

00:24:15.640 --> 00:24:18.560
embedded within, so you
can retrace it back,

00:24:18.560 --> 00:24:20.880
and it gives you the identity,

00:24:20.880 --> 00:24:23.520
you can reclaim and reawaken
your culture.

00:24:23.520 --> 00:24:25.320
- Yeah.

00:24:25.320 --> 00:24:30.320
- It\'s just amazing.

00:24:32.440 --> 00:24:35.160
(drumming music)

00:24:36.160 --> 00:24:40.160
(singing in a Torres Strait
language)

00:25:35.560 --> 00:25:38.240
(clock chiming)

00:25:43.040 --> 00:25:45.600
(gentle music)

00:26:01.880 --> 00:26:05.960
(speaking in French)

00:26:32.960 --> 00:26:35.560
(gentle music)

00:29:47.280 --> 00:29:48.960
21st of September.

00:29:51.120 --> 00:29:56.000
Visiting Cambridge Museum
is the main

00:29:56.920 --> 00:29:58.520
area that I was interested in,

00:29:58.520 --> 00:30:02.400
because we were the
subject of Island Strait

00:30:02.400 --> 00:30:05.800
Cambridge scientific expedition.

00:30:05.800 --> 00:30:08.440
This was in 1898.

00:30:10.440 --> 00:30:14.320
Islands expedition recorded songs

00:30:14.320 --> 00:30:16.560
from the Torres Strait
in wax cylinder.

00:30:19.480 --> 00:30:22.320
Also he took four minutes
of film.

00:30:28.760 --> 00:30:30.520
Now we\'ve given up everything,

00:30:31.360 --> 00:30:33.240
our eye sights were tested.

00:30:33.240 --> 00:30:34.880
Our temperatures were taken.

00:30:36.840 --> 00:30:41.240
We gave our songs to be
recorded in the wax cylinders.

00:30:41.240 --> 00:30:45.280
We gave our stories to
be written down.

00:30:45.280 --> 00:30:47.440
What good did it do for us?

00:30:50.920 --> 00:30:55.920
The result was published in
six volumes,

00:30:59.560 --> 00:31:02.320
and apart from that,
he also took

00:31:03.280 --> 00:31:07.560
about 1250 objects back
to England with him.

00:31:18.800 --> 00:31:20.600
I have two opinions about him.

00:31:22.080 --> 00:31:24.880
In a way, he preserved our culture.

00:31:26.640 --> 00:31:31.120
He took these things away,
but kept them in the museums.

00:31:33.360 --> 00:31:36.520
In another way, it was
lost for the Torres Strait.

00:31:39.840 --> 00:31:42.520
Not to do anything about it
is like

00:31:42.520 --> 00:31:45.960
a great silence in the
history, no one will know.

00:31:56.760 --> 00:31:58.680
- I can\'t tell if it\'s ...

00:32:01.160 --> 00:32:03.560
- So this is a very, very amazing

00:32:03.560 --> 00:32:06.400
tortoise shell mask in here,
isn\'t it?

00:32:06.400 --> 00:32:08.280
And it has a story.

00:32:08.280 --> 00:32:09.800
- It has a story, yes.

00:32:14.320 --> 00:32:16.680
That\'s a coconut head with
a human face.

00:32:20.800 --> 00:32:24.960
There was a family of
three, and his father

00:32:24.960 --> 00:32:29.960
wanted to try and look for
a pet for his daughter.

00:32:31.640 --> 00:32:34.520
So he found this crocodile nest,

00:32:35.840 --> 00:32:39.040
and he took the egg home.

00:32:39.040 --> 00:32:43.840
The egg hatched and
discovered it was a crocodile,

00:32:45.760 --> 00:32:47.320
so that was his daughter\'s pet.

00:32:50.040 --> 00:32:52.920
They called that crocodile
Ubirikubiri.

00:32:55.200 --> 00:32:58.160
The crocodile grew, and
the only person

00:32:59.760 --> 00:33:03.240
that fed the crocodile was
his daughter.

00:33:04.720 --> 00:33:08.040
But then one day, when
she went up the hill

00:33:08.040 --> 00:33:11.600
with the mother to look
for yams,

00:33:11.600 --> 00:33:14.800
it was meal time, and
father took

00:33:14.800 --> 00:33:16.320
the meal over to the crocodile.

00:33:17.680 --> 00:33:20.280
So the crocodile didn\'t know
the father,

00:33:20.280 --> 00:33:23.120
she killed him, and took him down

00:33:24.240 --> 00:33:25.600
to the water, to the river.

00:33:27.400 --> 00:33:29.960
Now when the party returned,
mother and daughter,

00:33:29.960 --> 00:33:33.680
the daughter looked for
the tracks,

00:33:33.680 --> 00:33:35.320
and she knew that the crocodile must

00:33:35.320 --> 00:33:36.920
have taken her father.

00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:40.160
They traced the tracks down
to the water,

00:33:41.280 --> 00:33:44.200
and there was no sign,
then she started

00:33:44.200 --> 00:33:47.880
to shout \"Ubirikubiri,
Ubirikubiri.

00:33:47.880 --> 00:33:51.640
\"I want to see my father, could
you come up to the surface?\"

00:33:53.920 --> 00:33:56.400
And the water broke, and
there was this crocodile

00:33:56.400 --> 00:33:59.480
with her father, lying on the back.

00:34:01.680 --> 00:34:04.560
She said \"Come closer, come
closer, I want my father.\"

00:34:05.800 --> 00:34:08.600
The crocodile came, and
all the men

00:34:08.600 --> 00:34:10.120
were ready to kill the crocodile.

00:34:10.120 --> 00:34:13.800
They killed the crocodile,
took her father

00:34:13.800 --> 00:34:15.640
back and buried him.

00:34:15.640 --> 00:34:19.160
That\'s a story about,
you can see that

00:34:19.160 --> 00:34:20.960
the human face represent
her father

00:34:22.680 --> 00:34:24.640
that was killed by this crocodile

00:34:24.640 --> 00:34:25.480
that was called Ubirikubiri.

00:34:31.080 --> 00:34:33.480
- [Anita] There should
be quite a few in there.

00:34:33.480 --> 00:34:34.920
- They\'re nice.

00:34:35.800 --> 00:34:36.640
Dugong.

00:34:43.480 --> 00:34:46.360
I can\'t tell what they are made of.

00:34:47.760 --> 00:34:48.600
Wood?

00:34:50.120 --> 00:34:52.400
- [Anita] What were
they used for, Ephraim?

00:34:52.400 --> 00:34:53.240
Charms?

00:34:53.240 --> 00:34:56.760
They\'re called charms,
to bring the dugong?

00:34:56.760 --> 00:34:58.360
- I think, yeah.

00:34:59.760 --> 00:35:02.000
I think that\'s what they
were used for,

00:35:02.000 --> 00:35:05.800
to bring dugongs back,
or bring dugongs

00:35:05.800 --> 00:35:08.160
in front of the hunter.

00:35:08.160 --> 00:35:09.960
- [Anita] To attract them
to come?

00:35:09.960 --> 00:35:12.160
- Yeah, attract them to come,
I think that\'s what it is.

00:35:12.160 --> 00:35:15.760
- [Anita] It\'s breakable but
it\'s strong, it\'s a shell.

00:35:15.760 --> 00:35:16.600
It\'s a shell.

00:35:20.960 --> 00:35:22.160
So what\'s on it?

00:35:23.760 --> 00:35:24.600
- Dugongs.

00:35:28.840 --> 00:35:32.520
This little piece tells you
how to butcher a dugong.

00:35:37.120 --> 00:35:40.560
You see these little lines here?

00:35:43.200 --> 00:35:45.600
This is exactly how you cut
a dugong.

00:35:48.200 --> 00:35:53.080
It\'s passing on a knowledge
to a young butcher.

00:35:54.000 --> 00:35:56.840
You don\'t just cut
dugong anyway, you know?

00:35:56.840 --> 00:35:58.880
There are certain marks
you have to make.

00:36:00.440 --> 00:36:03.240
- Your directions are
on your actual tool.

00:36:13.760 --> 00:36:16.160
Should we move, move this?

00:36:16.160 --> 00:36:17.000
- Yeah.

00:36:20.720 --> 00:36:23.240
- [Anita] Would those be used
by children?

00:36:23.240 --> 00:36:26.880
- No, I think they used
to ... it\'s a game we play,

00:36:29.080 --> 00:36:31.080
taking people around, putting
a mask on,

00:36:32.040 --> 00:36:34.320
taking people around
during harvest ceremony.

00:36:36.080 --> 00:36:39.760
This could be Charles
Darwin you know. (laughing)

00:36:41.120 --> 00:36:43.280
(recording crackling)

00:37:35.560 --> 00:37:39.560
I was amazed to listen
to the great

00:37:39.560 --> 00:37:42.440
grandfather of my wife,
the stories

00:37:42.440 --> 00:37:46.600
that was recorded in
the wax cylinders.

00:37:47.440 --> 00:37:50.160
Listening to him, it was
like a voice from the past.

00:37:57.000 --> 00:38:01.480
When Haddon came, he saw
the culture

00:38:01.480 --> 00:38:03.400
was slowly being lost.

00:38:04.760 --> 00:38:07.680
His mission was like
a rescue mission.

00:38:09.600 --> 00:38:14.600
For example, the Malo
religion was suppressed.

00:38:19.280 --> 00:38:21.560
Haddon in his expedition
was interested

00:38:21.560 --> 00:38:23.920
in the old turtle shell
mask, and one of them

00:38:23.920 --> 00:38:28.680
was the Malo mask, and
his informant

00:38:28.680 --> 00:38:32.960
made a replica from cardboard,

00:38:32.960 --> 00:38:36.080
from the packing boxes
from the expedition.

00:38:37.080 --> 00:38:39.680
(gentle music)

00:38:50.560 --> 00:38:53.440
- [Anita] This is a big
cardboard mask.

00:38:53.440 --> 00:38:55.240
- [Ephraim] And it was made
for Haddon?

00:38:55.240 --> 00:38:56.080
- [Anita] Yes.

00:38:57.000 --> 00:38:58.400
It\'s just cardboard.

00:38:59.440 --> 00:39:01.760
Should we turn it round
so we can see it?

00:39:07.680 --> 00:39:09.960
When you were talking
about size,

00:39:09.960 --> 00:39:12.240
I didn\'t realise this was
so large.

00:39:17.440 --> 00:39:21.040
- It\'s frightening, it\'s
very holy, very sacred.

00:39:22.520 --> 00:39:25.280
The masks have to be
worn by certain people,

00:39:26.800 --> 00:39:29.720
but this mask, I think, it
is worn by a high priest.

00:39:29.720 --> 00:39:32.200
Not just anybody come
and wear it, you know?

00:39:32.200 --> 00:39:33.320
It\'s against the rules.

00:39:34.480 --> 00:39:37.040
(gentle music)

00:39:53.520 --> 00:39:56.360
But I tell you, it is
very sacred, yes.

00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:05.480
(upbeat orchestral music)

00:40:14.840 --> 00:40:16.840
This is the wooden part.

00:40:29.760 --> 00:40:32.520
My wife and I, we are
real companions.

00:40:33.920 --> 00:40:35.560
We converse every time, you know,

00:40:35.560 --> 00:40:38.920
but that time, we had no words.

00:40:38.920 --> 00:40:41.520
We just gazed at each
other with open mouth,

00:40:41.520 --> 00:40:43.520
we were that excited
about those things.

00:40:45.240 --> 00:40:48.440
I think it was a real
cultural knowledge

00:40:48.440 --> 00:40:51.000
from the past that was
revealed to us.

00:40:54.000 --> 00:40:55.000
I felt lifted.

00:40:56.200 --> 00:40:58.200
I was so excited to see
these things.

00:41:00.440 --> 00:41:03.240
I thought to myself that
this is where

00:41:03.240 --> 00:41:05.520
our ancient wisdom is buried.

00:41:07.040 --> 00:41:09.000
So when I seen this object
I thought

00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:11.280
I have to take these images back.

00:41:12.600 --> 00:41:15.960
(dramatic string music)

00:41:25.120 --> 00:41:28.200
(seagulls squawking)

00:41:29.680 --> 00:41:31.040
(sheep bleating)

00:41:31.040 --> 00:41:33.760
- You separate that piece
of stuff

00:41:33.760 --> 00:41:38.320
from the generator,
that is people

00:41:38.320 --> 00:41:40.000
being involved with each other,

00:41:40.000 --> 00:41:45.000
and you\'re left with a question,

00:41:45.320 --> 00:41:47.040
why are we keeping this?

00:41:47.920 --> 00:41:51.440
It\'s the old one about
the African dance mask.

00:41:51.440 --> 00:41:54.640
These things were mobiles
that were meant

00:41:54.640 --> 00:41:59.440
to be seen in performance
with music,

00:42:02.040 --> 00:42:04.720
and dance, and fear,
and the smell

00:42:04.720 --> 00:42:07.800
of loosened bowels,
and all laughter,

00:42:07.800 --> 00:42:12.200
or insult and abuse.

00:42:12.200 --> 00:42:15.880
All of these powerful,
interpersonal dramas

00:42:15.880 --> 00:42:17.880
that would take place, and
when the piece

00:42:17.880 --> 00:42:19.560
is in the museum, we know
that it is,

00:42:19.560 --> 00:42:23.360
and this is this, I hate
using this word,

00:42:23.360 --> 00:42:26.080
because it\'s commonplace,
but it is dead.

00:42:26.080 --> 00:42:30.440
It\'s gone back to being
a piece of stuff.

00:42:30.440 --> 00:42:33.960
We try to revivify it
by turning it into art,

00:42:33.960 --> 00:42:36.000
which is as close as we can
come to trying

00:42:36.000 --> 00:42:41.000
to restore that sense of
social purpose to a thing.

00:42:42.840 --> 00:42:45.240
It\'s an art form that only
very gifted

00:42:45.240 --> 00:42:49.000
people will be able to do,
to juxtapose an object,

00:42:49.000 --> 00:42:51.920
and words, and perhaps
other sensations,

00:42:51.920 --> 00:42:56.440
sounds and things, and
create a melange that moves.

00:42:56.440 --> 00:42:59.200
(dramatic music)

00:43:29.120 --> 00:43:30.880
- A small canoe from
Papua New Guinea.

00:43:30.880 --> 00:43:32.280
- In Papua New Guinea.

00:43:32.280 --> 00:43:34.400
Over there is a very tiny bowl.

00:43:37.520 --> 00:43:40.960
Here you see these are
part of canoes actually,

00:43:40.960 --> 00:43:45.080
you see this crocodile, but
it\'s the front

00:43:45.080 --> 00:43:46.840
of a big long canoe.

00:43:46.840 --> 00:43:48.520
It\'s a mixture of crocodile
and pig,

00:43:48.520 --> 00:43:51.160
because here is a pig tusk
here, you see?

00:43:51.160 --> 00:43:52.160
Here is a pig, you see that?

00:43:52.160 --> 00:43:53.120
- I can see, it\'s a pig,
the nose.

00:43:53.120 --> 00:43:53.960
- It\'s a pig, yeah.

00:43:53.960 --> 00:43:55.320
- The nose here.

00:43:57.960 --> 00:44:01.200
- And they\'re skulls,
you see the heads?

00:44:01.200 --> 00:44:02.480
They\'re human heads.

00:44:04.000 --> 00:44:06.880
They kill people, they
cut the head

00:44:06.880 --> 00:44:08.240
and they brought it home.

00:44:08.240 --> 00:44:09.800
- Yes, yes.

00:44:09.800 --> 00:44:11.720
- To show how good they were.

00:44:11.720 --> 00:44:12.760
- Like prize.

00:44:12.760 --> 00:44:14.400
- Prize, yeah.

00:44:14.400 --> 00:44:17.720
When the curated, he made
these showcases,

00:44:17.720 --> 00:44:21.520
they tried not to make
right angles,

00:44:21.520 --> 00:44:25.080
because only Europeans
have right angles.

00:44:26.120 --> 00:44:27.720
Because they saw in the Pacific,

00:44:27.720 --> 00:44:29.920
they don\'t use right angles,
actually,

00:44:29.920 --> 00:44:31.800
if they carve things.

00:44:31.800 --> 00:44:33.120
They\'re different shapes.

00:44:33.120 --> 00:44:33.960
- [Ephraim] Shapes.

00:44:33.960 --> 00:44:37.800
- And all this gives
more a lively atmosphere.

00:44:37.800 --> 00:44:40.400
If you have always these
right angle showcases,

00:44:40.400 --> 00:44:42.600
it\'s very stiff.

00:44:43.920 --> 00:44:48.920
So we have a large
collection of the Pacific,

00:44:49.120 --> 00:44:50.960
and we show, in one case,
we show

00:44:50.960 --> 00:44:55.680
some masks from the Torres
Strait islands,

00:44:55.680 --> 00:44:57.040
as you can see here.

00:45:01.920 --> 00:45:03.600
They\'re old, old masks--

00:45:03.600 --> 00:45:04.440
- [Ephraim] Old masks.

00:45:04.440 --> 00:45:06.040
- [Markus] Yeah, from
last century.

00:45:07.320 --> 00:45:09.760
- [Ephraim] Would you
have descriptions on them,

00:45:09.760 --> 00:45:11.880
explaining what they are?

00:45:11.880 --> 00:45:13.400
- No, these early collectors,

00:45:13.400 --> 00:45:15.160
they never tried to write down

00:45:15.160 --> 00:45:17.800
what they collected,
they just collected it,

00:45:17.800 --> 00:45:20.280
and then they brought it
to other places.

00:45:21.200 --> 00:45:24.560
We don\'t know much about
it, not from these pieces.

00:45:26.040 --> 00:45:27.640
Don\'t know.

00:45:27.640 --> 00:45:29.960
- Do you have anymore collections

00:45:29.960 --> 00:45:32.320
from where I come from,
Torres Strait?

00:45:32.320 --> 00:45:34.440
- We have some, but not many.

00:45:35.440 --> 00:45:38.680
The nicest pieces we show
on exhibition.

00:45:38.680 --> 00:45:40.840
So if people from the Pacific,
they come

00:45:40.840 --> 00:45:44.080
to the museum, which is rare,
very rare,

00:45:44.080 --> 00:45:47.920
and it\'s a special case
today, but then they can see

00:45:47.920 --> 00:45:52.480
objects or masks or whatever
from their own country.

00:45:52.480 --> 00:45:55.440
That was the idea of
this exhibition,

00:45:55.440 --> 00:45:58.920
so when German or
European people

00:45:58.920 --> 00:46:01.440
come to the museum,
they realise

00:46:01.440 --> 00:46:04.920
how good these Pacific
people are,

00:46:04.920 --> 00:46:08.080
to do all these things, because
very often

00:46:08.080 --> 00:46:11.600
they think they\'re barbarians,
savages,

00:46:11.600 --> 00:46:12.800
they cannot do anything.

00:46:13.960 --> 00:46:15.400
What do you think when
you see these things

00:46:15.400 --> 00:46:16.920
so far away from your country?

00:46:18.000 --> 00:46:20.640
- First of all, it gives me
attachment,

00:46:20.640 --> 00:46:22.000
special attachment to them.

00:46:25.000 --> 00:46:26.840
Our art is so far away here.

00:46:29.360 --> 00:46:32.360
And there is also something
I\'ve seen in here,

00:46:35.560 --> 00:46:38.040
there were two mummies,
would you hold

00:46:38.040 --> 00:46:39.120
these two mummies here?

00:46:39.120 --> 00:46:41.880
Both from Hogar, it\'s Stephens
Island in Torres Strait.

00:46:44.400 --> 00:46:47.280
I was a bit curious,
what do the museum,

00:46:47.280 --> 00:46:50.600
what role they play with the
mummies like that, you know?

00:46:50.600 --> 00:46:53.160
- Normally these were collections

00:46:53.160 --> 00:46:56.480
in the 19th century,
some in the 20th,

00:46:56.480 --> 00:47:00.440
and in the 19th century,
there was a very strong

00:47:00.440 --> 00:47:04.120
interest in anthropological
things.

00:47:04.120 --> 00:47:07.960
One of the aims, strong
aims in the 19th century

00:47:07.960 --> 00:47:12.160
was to classify the world,
to classify

00:47:12.160 --> 00:47:15.760
not only plants, but other
beings, human beings.

00:47:15.760 --> 00:47:18.200
They found different
people, different colours,

00:47:18.200 --> 00:47:21.360
different bone types,
different faces,

00:47:21.360 --> 00:47:26.040
and they wanted to get,
for their own world view,

00:47:26.040 --> 00:47:29.160
explanations why they
are different.

00:47:29.160 --> 00:47:32.040
So they collected these things,

00:47:32.040 --> 00:47:34.240
it was the reason behind it.

00:47:35.880 --> 00:47:37.520
- Right.

00:47:37.520 --> 00:47:40.360
At this time now,
current situation,

00:47:40.360 --> 00:47:43.640
if there was a request
to return

00:47:43.640 --> 00:47:46.160
those mummies to the people
themselves,

00:47:46.160 --> 00:47:48.680
what would the museums do?

00:47:48.680 --> 00:47:51.800
To give me some educations,
as a curator.

00:47:51.800 --> 00:47:55.240
- We have to decide in
each case separately.

00:47:55.240 --> 00:47:57.880
We have to know about
the circumstances

00:47:57.880 --> 00:48:00.280
things came to the museum,
who gave it

00:48:00.280 --> 00:48:03.880
to the museum, why it
was given to the museum,

00:48:03.880 --> 00:48:07.520
and then we decide in
each case separately.

00:48:07.520 --> 00:48:12.160
So we cannot give a general
answer to this question.

00:48:12.160 --> 00:48:15.000
In each case, it can
be different.

00:48:22.560 --> 00:48:25.320
(dramatic music)

00:48:37.840 --> 00:48:40.920
- [Ephraim] I might have
been naive but it became

00:48:40.920 --> 00:48:43.320
clear to me that
the museums regard

00:48:43.320 --> 00:48:46.520
this stuff as treasures in
competition with others.

00:48:47.960 --> 00:48:50.240
I bet that pieces have been sold

00:48:50.240 --> 00:48:53.160
into privates hands, sold
through dealers

00:48:53.160 --> 00:48:58.160
to Americans, even sold by
some museums for private gain.

00:49:02.080 --> 00:49:06.160
The Torres Strait mask and
drum from Dresden Museum

00:49:06.160 --> 00:49:09.520
ended up in a private museum
in Geneva.

00:49:11.680 --> 00:49:15.680
So some museums are
hypocrites, as I can see it.

00:49:18.640 --> 00:49:21.400
(dramatic music)

00:49:37.680 --> 00:49:40.240
(gentle music)

00:51:37.640 --> 00:51:40.200
(gentle music)

00:51:58.360 --> 00:52:00.320
Maybe some people might like
to see them

00:52:00.320 --> 00:52:05.320
in CD-ROMs or literature, or
photographic representations.

00:52:07.200 --> 00:52:08.720
We don\'t like to see them
this way,

00:52:08.720 --> 00:52:12.120
we like to see them physically,

00:52:12.120 --> 00:52:14.720
because this is where
spirit emanates

00:52:14.720 --> 00:52:16.040
and communicate with us.

00:52:30.160 --> 00:52:34.160
When I came over, I had
high hopes

00:52:34.160 --> 00:52:36.560
that things will work out well,

00:52:36.560 --> 00:52:39.400
but it seems to me that
there are still obstacles

00:52:39.400 --> 00:52:40.880
that I have to tackle.

00:52:43.520 --> 00:52:45.760
The curators were so
really varied.

00:52:47.720 --> 00:52:51.600
It seems that they cannot
part with these things.

00:52:54.480 --> 00:52:56.760
I wonder what the reception
will be like

00:52:56.760 --> 00:52:59.520
when I go into this museum.

00:53:07.640 --> 00:53:09.360
I can recall talking
about this mask.

00:53:09.360 --> 00:53:10.760
- [Curator] Please don\'t
touch it.

00:53:10.760 --> 00:53:12.240
- Oh sorry, sorry.

00:53:19.360 --> 00:53:22.120
(dramatic music)

00:54:41.480 --> 00:54:45.480
(singing in a Torres Strait
language)

00:55:18.080 --> 00:55:20.640
(upbeat music)