An Empire of Reason

[00:00:06.83] [MUSIC PLAYING]

[00:00:11.23] Hello. I'm Cokie Roberts speaking to you from Washington, DC, the city Americans love to hate. I work here among all the symbols of big government-- Congress, the Supreme Court, and of course, the ever popular Internal Revenue Service. The film you're about to see recreates one of the greatest debates in all of history, a debate about what sort of government this country would have, or even if it would be a country at all.

[00:00:35.87] It took place over 200 years ago. You see, the suspicions Americans have about strong central government go way back. Take a look at the time. The Revolution had been won. The country is called the "United" States, but the states are not really united.

[00:00:52.56] Delaware, Virginia, New York, and the rest are acting like 13 separate little countries fighting with each other, not paying off the war debt. It was chaos. What to do? We know what people were arguing about because we have their diaries, passionate letters, and angry newspaper articles.

[00:01:09.40] But what if television, with its talk shows, news flashes, and political spots, had been around then? That's the premise of this award winning program, to use the technologies of modern day television to cover the debates as they unfold day by day in one crucial state, New York.

[00:01:28.46] You're going to see a lot of white men doing this debating. Although women and blacks fought and died in the Revolution, they were excluded from the political process. That's an old story, too.

[00:01:38.91] So let's take away the Perry wigs and quaint language. Let's dress our ancestors in jeans and three piece suits, and see how they pulled it off. How they argued over two centuries ago the case for becoming a nation.

[00:01:53.93] [MUSIC PLAYING]

[00:01:55.40] You are tuned to the Voice of Free America, the continental television network. March 1st, 1787. This is STN Nightly News. Your host, Walter Cronkite.

[00:02:07.76] Good evening. Here in New York, the Continental Congress is broke again. It's been over a year since the delegate from Duchess County, Melancton Smith, introduced his motion, urging Connecticut, New Jersey, and North Carolina to pay their share of the cost of running the government. Commented Smith today, we're still waiting.

[00:02:27.39] In a related story, we learned that New York state's delegates to the Philadelphia Convention finally have been confirmed. They're Alexander Hamilton from New York, Robert Yates from Albany, and that town's mayor, John Lansing. Alexander Hamilton comments on what they hope to achieve in Philadelphia this summer.

[00:02:45.22] --knows that the Confederation states has been experiencing a variety of difficulties in recent years. Most states do not support Congress, nor do they carry their share of the national debt. And some have even begun openly to have trade wars with each other. We intend to be discussing these issues.

[00:03:02.25] New York delegate Alexander Hamilton. There is mounting fear in Columbia County tonight. Dispersed by the Massachusetts militia, leaders of what has become known as the Shays' Rebellion have escaped across the border into New York, causing panic and this reaction from New York's Governor George Clinton.

[00:03:20.82] It is a rebellion against all law and order in our society. New York is offering a reward for any Shays' Rebel captured in the state. Militia, headed by myself, will track down the leaders. New York state will not be a haven for Massachusetts terrorists.

[00:03:39.01] What is behind this unrest? For a special report, we go to CTN's Massachusetts correspondent Forrest Sawyer.

[00:03:46.89] Shays' Rebellion is a rebellion of farmers, one further result of our faltering economy.

[00:03:52.48] Barn numbers. Get your barn numbers right here.

[00:03:56.32] A farm auction in Worcester, an increasingly common sight in these hard times. Since last August, farmers unable to pay their taxes are going deeper and deeper into debt. In public auctions all over the state, farmers are losing their equipment, their livestock, and their land. Everything they fought and worked for. Some have become desperate men.

[00:04:16.08] We'll shut down the entire legal system, by force if necessary.

[00:04:19.70] Men like Daniel Shays, a captain in the Revolutionary War, now himself an impoverished farmer. For Shays and his men, armed rebellion seemed to be the only answer.

[00:04:29.57] We'll block the courts. We will not give up our farms. With guns we defeated the red coats from London. With guns we will defeat these tyrants from the statehouse in Boston.

[00:04:38.62] Al l right.

[00:04:40.86] By last month, this band of insurgents had grown to the size of a small army, 1,800 men. The inevitable confrontation came here, near the Springfield Armory, where the Shays farmers fought the well armed state militia led by General Shepherd. Three of the insurgents were killed. Many more were wounded.

[00:04:57.36] And now the rebellion has been crushed. Its leaders dispersed. A bloody ending to the state's most serious civil disturbance. Reporting from Springfield, Massachusetts, this is Forrest Sawyer.

[00:05:07.76] For commentary on these events, John Chancellor.

[00:05:11.15] Walter, the Shays' Rebellion is just the tip of the iceberg. There is a general breakdown of confidence in government. Our loose confederation of states is just not working. The Continental Congress has become, well, a joke.

[00:05:24.66] It has no money or power. We live in very real danger that some hostile group is going to take advantage of our internal chaos and attempt a takeover of the states. Some of our most loyal citizens are so disgusted with the disorder of the last few years that they might well support this takeover.

[00:05:42.12] The British will have the last laugh. They've been telling us all along that a government without a monarchy is an unworkable system. I hope for the sake of America they're wrong. And that's commentary for this evening, Walter.

[00:05:53.91] Thank you, John. In a speech before New York City's Chamber of Commerce today, secretary of foreign affairs John Jay reported that two more American ships, the Boston and the Hudson, have been captured by pirates off the coast of Tripoli. 50 sailors are missing and presumed dead.

[00:06:11.82] I ask you this question. Would Spain suffer this kind of humiliation? Would Portugal? We're weak. We have no unified foreign policy, so other nations spit on our flag. Weakness at home is danger abroad.

[00:06:29.89] [APPLAUSE]

[00:06:32.90] And finally tonight, do you know this animal? This is a familiar sight to residents of New York City. But for some irate citizens, Porkie should stay off the streets and in the backyard where he belongs.

[00:06:46.65] We will fight. Let them riot. Let them riot. If the big stones go, then we will fight.

[00:06:53.51] New York City has almost 30,000 people, and we still don't have any organized form of garbage collection. And these awful animals eating all the trash--

[00:07:01.73] No, no, no, no. This pig. No. No, no. That costs money. This is free.

[00:07:10.33] What kind of craziness is this? The next thing you know, they'll be out here asking the city to provide them with drinking water and sidewalks and parking lots for their horses. This has got to stop.

[00:07:22.68] Al Roker, what kind of garbage can we expect coming from the upper atmosphere?

[00:07:27.17] Well, Walter, those pigs are going to have to get out their overcoats. Because for some of our 13 states, at least, the long hard winter is returning. The temperature in New York City will be plunging down to a bone chilling 28 degrees.

[00:07:38.82] Looking at the map, here's what's going to be causing the cold snap. The trouble is this high here over on Northwestern territories bringing cold, cold air down from British Canada down around the lakes and into the entire northern regions of the Confederation. From Massachusetts here to northern Pennsylvania.

[00:07:54.49] Cold, cold temperatures. Where the 10 at Rutland in the independent country of Vermont. There's going to be heavy snow in New York's Indian territories. Snow at Whitestown. Snow in Canandaigua.

[00:08:04.12] Look for a 12 degree reading at Fort Edward. But warmer near the coast at Brunswick and Portland here in northern Massachusetts. It'll stay much, much warmer south of the front. They'll have sunshine in Savannah and a cheery 50 degrees.

[00:08:16.24] And 45 in Annapolis in the great southern state of Maryland. In our hot air balloon photos taken earlier today, you'll notice the clouds over the northern states. But by contrast, clear skies throughout the South.

[00:08:28.25] At the frontier here in Louisville, Virginia, no clouds over the southwest territories all the way to the Mississippi and down across the border into Spanish New Orleans and Saint Augustine. And looking ahead to the weekend, we're going to call for sunshine and a teeny bit warmer. Walter.

[00:08:43.86] Thanks, Al. And that's the way it is. Thursday, March 1st, 1787. I'm Walter Cronkite. Good night.

[00:08:51.11] [MUSIC PLAYING]

[00:08:54.36] From the Atlantic to the Mississippi, this is the Continental Television Network.

[00:09:00.14] It's Trading Eddie's Constitutional Blow Out Blitz. Don't have any hard cash? Well, no one does. So let's barter. Trading Eddie guarantees you the best barter deal you'll find anywhere south of Poughkeepsie.

[00:09:11.72] Wheat, rye, and barley, Trading Eddie's got them. Barbados sugar, ginger, rum, and pickled oysters, Trading Eddie's got them, too. So come on in. Bring in your extra hemp, buttons, glass, nails, and spikes.

[00:09:22.46] You've got boots, we got limes. You got stockings, we got clubs, razors, coffee, blankets, and much more. It's Trading Eddie's Constitutional Blow Out Blitz. Bring the whole family, barter it now. Because Eddie want to accept continental dollars. Must be insane.

[00:09:41.66] Seven months later. September 28th, 1787. The proposed constitution, just signed in Philadelphia, must now be ratified by the 13 states. In New York state, the fight has already begun.

[00:09:57.07] [MUSIC PLAYING]

[00:10:06.13] Good evening. For almost five months, there's been a total press blackout at the Philadelphia Convention. And under this pledge of secrecy, the best political minds of the country have been deliberating.

[00:10:16.91] Convened originally to iron out certain problems with the Articles of Confederation, the convention quickly became nothing short of a full scale debate on a new form of national government. And here's the result of their labors.

[00:10:29.61] A rather brief document beginning "We the people of the United States." In its seven articles, it does nothing less than completely redefine the government and power structure of this country. To become law, this new constitution must be accepted by at least nine of the 13 states. But across the country, a campaign against ratification has already begun.

[00:10:52.10] To comment, we have three delegates who represented New York state at the Philadelphia Convention. Joining us in our Albany studio, the mayor of that city, John Lansing, Jr., and Judge Robert Yates. And here in our New York studio, Alexander Hamilton, a lawyer.

[00:11:08.10] Judge Yates. I understand that even though you and Mayor Lansing participated in the debates, you strongly object to the document that finally came out. Why is that?

[00:11:17.87] First of all, let me point out that we didn't sign it. We didn't even stay to the end of the convention. The government of New York never authorized us to be part of a plan to deprive the state of its rights and its sovereignty.

[00:11:32.88] When it became clear by July that the convention had been taken over by a Federalist clique-- supported, by the way, by Mr. Hamilton-- a clique determined to tear up the Articles of Confederation and set up a central government with unlimited powers, we packed our bags and went home.

[00:11:51.85] Mr. Hamilton's signature on this document is exactly that, his signature. It does not represent the majority opinion of the delegates from New York. Nor, I dare say, does it represent the opinion of the people of New York.

[00:12:04.49] Well, I'm sorry, Mr. Yates, that you didn't stick around. The Constitution that we came up with in Philadelphia is an answer to the profound crisis that this country has been going through for the last 10 years.

[00:12:15.25] You have to agree, Mr. Yates, don't you, that our country is in serious trouble? The economy, national defense.

[00:12:20.69] Absolutely. In fact, I consider it a topographical piece of luck that we have the Atlantic between us and our enemies, because that is the only thing protecting us from invasion. We are in the midst of a terrible depression. Lenders in this country have completely lost faith in this system.

[00:12:36.93] That's hardly surprising with you and your friends tearing down the country.

[00:12:40.90] We all sat listening to these tales of gloom and doom that you and your cronies were spreading at the convention. What country are you talking about? It's not the confederation of states that I know. It's not the confederation that got us through a long war with the most powerful country on earth. We won that one, Mr. Hamilton.

[00:12:59.62] Exactly. It's in Mr. Hamilton's interest to create a crisis so that he and his friends can grab power. Mr. MacNeil, this Constitution is nothing more than a plot to take away our civil liberties. We shouldn't just vote against this elite who are so quick to take away power from the people. We should send them back up to Canada with the rest of their Brit friends.

[00:13:18.45] If you're attacking my loyalty, let me remind you both that I, too, fought side by side with loyal Patriots from all the 13 states.

[00:13:25.46] Mr. Lansing, gentlemen, gentlemen. I don't think we're going to send anyone into exile in Canada this evening. Let me put this question to all of you, starting with Mr. Hamilton. Is the concept of a central government running a country as large as ours really a workable idea?

[00:13:41.46] Yes, Robert. It is. We have a wonderful system of transportation with our wide rivers. We already trade with each other. We speak the same language. We are one people.

[00:13:51.08] We already, as a nation, have made war--

[00:13:53.79] What's your point, Hamilton.

[00:13:54.90] The point is that we already a country, not 13 separate little republics. The question before us is very simply, do we want to become a strong nation or remain a weak one.

[00:14:06.22] But Mr. Hamilton, your critics point to the size of this nation. 1,000 miles long, 800 miles from the ocean to the Mississippi, four million people. How can one central government really run such a huge country?

[00:14:18.91] Robert, the question--

[00:14:19.54] No problem for Mr. Hamilton. He grew up in the Caribbean. Maybe to him, all Americans are exactly alike. Well, we have different religions. We have different economic interests. We are not the same. That's why we have 13 governments.

[00:14:32.96] Look around the world, Hamilton. Read your history books. Give me an example of one large country where the common man is not oppressed. True liberty, government by the people for the people, is only possible in small republics.

[00:14:50.99] And what happens when these small republics start fighting with each other? We already have border disputes between Maryland, North Carolina, and Virginia, New Hampshire, and New York. Now you tell me to look at my history books.

[00:15:00.83] Well, I take a look at Europe and I see a patchwork of small states whose borders are constantly changing and have experienced 2,000 years of war. What you both don't seem to understand, or don't want to, is that this country, our great nation, is in very real danger of falling apart.

[00:15:17.95] Mr. Hamilton is very clever at twisting words. Nobody is against a stronger confederation in matters of defense and trade. What we are against is this Constitution, which gives all sorts of massive powers to this central government.

[00:15:33.64] New Yorkers will be made to live under laws made up not by their neighbors, but by people from Georgia. How many New Yorkers have even spoken to someone from New Jersey, never mind Georgia.

[00:15:46.75] Mr. Hamilton, you are asking us to trust politicians with our dearest freedoms. The liberty that our countrymen have died for. Now, we know enough not to surrender with a little ink what it's taken gallons of blood to defend.

[00:16:05.06] Fix the Confederation, fine. But forget this evil document. Let's stay small. Let's stay local. And let's stay free.

[00:16:15.87] And let us, the viewers, stay tuned. I want to thank you, Alexander Hamilton. And in Albany, John Lansing and Robert Yates. In the next 10 months, it will be up to the 13 states to decide. And we will be following their debates from Massachusetts to Georgia. I'm Robert MacNeil. For all of us here at CTN, good night.

[00:16:37.75] This is the Continental Television Network. The following is a paid political announcement.

[00:16:45.44] [SIRENS]

[00:16:48.42] These are our ships on fire, prey to barbaric pirates. Where is the American Navy? These are British cannons, still controlling the Western frontier of New York state. Where is the American Army? These are Spanish ships patrolling the Mississippi River, access to the great western plains. Where is the American Coast Guard?

[00:17:13.50] We are American states, but we are not united. And around the world, our enemies laugh. A nation without a national government is no nation at all. Vote America. Support your candidate for the ratification of the Constitution.

[00:17:32.59] Paid for by the New Federalist Committee.

[00:17:35.69] Six months later, April 5th, 1788. Six states have ratified the Constitution. New York state will hold its ratifying convention at the end of June. The selection of delegates begins.

[00:17:50.21] To ratify or not to ratify. That's the question facing New York voters. Where do New Yorkers stand on the proposed Constitution? It's an issue which will vitally affect the future of their state and the future of their country. Stay tuned for this election special.

[00:18:05.25] [MUSIC PLAYING]

[00:18:13.02] This news special is brought to you by Express riders, for those letters and documents that just can't wait, delivered positively, absolutely, within two months or your money back.

[00:18:28.97] The men behind the issues. Your host, Andrea Mitchell.

[00:18:33.49] Hello, I'm Andrea Mitchell. The campaign to elect delegates to the upcoming Poughkeepsie convention is in full swing. We've all heard their speeches and read their campaign slogans.

[00:18:43.68] Well, today we meet two candidates, Jesse Woodhull and Robert Livingston. We will see the men behind the campaign posters at home, at work, and at play.

[00:18:56.44] His name is Jesse Woodhull. To his neighbors in Orange County, he's an industrious farmer, working his 150 acres of land. Government officials at the legislature know him as a judge and state senator. To his militia buddies, his is Colonel Woodhull, with an impressive war record.

[00:19:14.36] For Woodhull, the science of politics is just common sense.

[00:19:19.59] Judge Woodhull, tell us just why are you against a strong national government?

[00:19:24.46] Well, no man can serve two masters. So what's it going to be? A state government that we can't control, or this all powerful national government Constitution's going to set up? When it comes down to a fight, I'll tell you where me and my neighbors are going to stand.

[00:19:40.23] I've worked hard for what I've got here. 31 years ago, cut down my first tree on this land. Except for a war or two, I haven't stopped since. This all belongs to me. No tax collector, no Constitution, no national government is going to take it away from m and my kids.

[00:19:59.89] Robert R. Livingston, chancellor of the state of New York, with a very different point of view. He helped draft the Declaration of Independence, was elected to several terms in the Continental Congress, where he was Secretary for Foreign Affairs. He's a Patriot, an orator, a large land holder, and a very wealthy man.

[00:20:18.56] Chancellor Livingston, what is it that so upsets you about our system of government under the Articles of Confederation?

[00:20:24.70] Well, it really all comes down to this. The wrong sort of people are in government. Narrow politicians looking for short term popularity, rather than statesmen with long term goals. The business of government is no longer local. We have a country to run. We need experienced men to lead this nation.

[00:20:47.51] Jesse Woodhull, Robert Livingston, candidates with two very different visions of this country. These are the men who may determine the fate of the Constitution. And right now in New York state, feelings against ratification are running high. I'm Andrea Mitchell, reporting.

[00:21:04.20] One month later, May 2nd, 1788. New York has voted. Woodhull and Livingston won seats to the ratifying convention. The Anti-Federalists, the delegates against the Constitution, have won a huge majority.

[00:21:19.99] [MUSIC PLAYING]

[00:21:33.79] This proposed Constitution is four pages long and will start a fight in an empty bar. We have farmers mad at city folks. We have neighbors arguing with each other. And in no other state is the passion and the anger appear to be greater than it does right here in New York.

[00:21:53.87] And we should say that in this audience are representatives from every county in New York, and we are pleased also to have on our program today two distinguished guests. Meet Chancellor Robert Livingston, a man you know well.

[00:22:05.03]

[00:22:10.10] As you know, he's a framer of the Declaration of Independence and a New York landowner. Mr. Livingston, it comes as no surprise to you that the major opposition appears to be the belief that the Constitution, which you so passionately support, is a document that will make government farther away from the people, a central powerful not really in touch with real folks.

[00:22:35.55] Why should the people, these people of the state of New York, ratify this proposed Constitution?

[00:22:40.63] Well, Phil, I think it's obvious that the Confederation of states has outlived its usefulness. The country has degenerated into chaos and economic depression. Now, we've had the best legal minds in the entire country have work for three months on this wonderful document. And we ought to trust their judgment, what's best for the country.

[00:23:02.60] Trust these people?

[00:23:03.44] You what?

[00:23:05.05] I wouldn't trust Mr. Livingston and his political cronies if there was a chorus of angels.

[00:23:14.38] Well, he does have a point, doesn't he? I mean, it is true that before we go jumping down this man's throat, this point ought to be made. This country does have problems.

[00:23:26.42] Please welcome Jesse Woodhull. You know him as a former judge and a Revolutionary War hero.

[00:23:34.52] Thank you.

[00:23:38.79] You're against the Constitution.

[00:23:40.20] Yes, sir.

[00:23:41.11] And you would solve our problems how?

[00:23:43.53] Well, as states, we fought the British at Valley Forge. And it seems to me that as states, we can solve our economic problems. We don't need this dangerous new system of government.

[00:23:54.23] That's right.

[00:23:55.21] Give this gentlemen a chance.

[00:23:56.68] 10 years ago, we fought the British because they wanted to raise our taxes and take our liberties away. I may just be a farmer from Albany County, but it seems to me that with your funny Constitution, you want to set up a President who's going to be just like a King in a faraway country.

[00:24:12.97] And you're going to make all the rules and make all of the rich people even fatter and make all of us even poorer.

[00:24:19.64] Give the man a chance. Mr. Roosevelt, sir. We recognize Isaac Roosevelt. If you just give me a moment. You are president of the Bank of New York. You are a businessman, and I'm sure you're proud to be so.

[00:24:31.00] This gentleman, who farms for a living, claims that among other things, this document will make you and your friends even richer.

[00:24:39.28] I would like to ask my friend the farmer from Albany County, why is it that you don't have any hard cash? I will tell you why you don't have any hard cash, because our country has no credit. Why is that?

[00:24:53.53] I will tell you why our country has no credit. Because these free 13 great states who are confederated but separated cannot get it together to pay even the interest on our foreign debt which the Continental Congress asked for. I mean, we are a rich country, but we're flat broke.

[00:25:19.40] This is how I feel. Your state government, which you guys from the sticks are so very fond of, really has been getting a free ride. It get most of its money, it gets almost all of its money, from customs duties that they take on things that we import. In the city, we pay through the nose. We get nothing back.

[00:25:39.07]

[00:25:39.99] Please. You yak a lot about freedom and liberty, but all you really want to do is not pay your land taxes. It seems to me that if we had one strong unified government and not 13 weak ones, then we can call ourselves a country and we can get our people working again.

[00:26:01.57] Before we start choosing up sides here, this point should be made. Some of our states have their own bill of rights. Why shouldn't our national Constitution? What is so wrong with that?

[00:26:15.04] Exactly. I couldn't agree with you more here. You'll find that the distinguished gentleman sitting beside me, he's real willing to talk about trade with Jamaica. He's willing to talk about the problems with pirates off the coast of Libya.

[00:26:27.91] But he's very quiet about our fundamental rights, which are mysteriously missing from this Constitution. That's the primary purpose of our government, to protect and defend our civil rights. You tear up the Declaration of Independence--

[00:26:48.61] Oh, come on, now. It's not tearing up the Declaration of Independence. It's describing a system of government.

[00:26:54.60] Mr. Livingston, what's so bad about codifying these personal liberties? Why are you so hostile to the notion of saying freedom of speech is protected, freedom of assembly, freedom of the press, freedom of religion. Why not?

[00:27:12.53] You could make a lot of these people less nervous if you would consent to a Bill of Rights as part of this proposed Constitution. What's wrong with that?

[00:27:21.35] Look, Phil. You can't list in this Constitution every freedom that we enjoy. Look, it doesn't specifically say that I am allowed to shave in the morning. But neither does it say that I can't.

[00:27:37.63] It's really quite simple, my dear sir. You don't have to write all our liberties down because the Constitution is not taking them away.

[00:27:45.60] We're not talking about your bathroom routine. We're talking about centralizing government. Now, you will write in black and white a bill that protects those basic civil liberties that we fought and died for, my dear sir, or I'll tell you, I'm not going to ratify the document.

[00:28:07.98] One second. Give us just a moment. Gentlemen. Are you afraid of this proposed Constitutional?

[00:28:15.90] No, Phil. I'm not afraid. I fought in the Revolution. I'm realistic. I'm realistic. That's all.

[00:28:23.56] When this debate is over, we're all going to go home and the men in this city will get down to work. Now, while we sleep, the politicians are going to be voting away our freedom.

[00:28:31.57] Now this is absurd. No, no, no. No. It's men like Judge Woodhull here that you are going to be sending to the federal Congress. Is there some magic transformation that's going to come over him and turn him into a monster?

[00:28:44.95] If you're so worried about your freedoms, you better start worrying about a government so weak and ineffective that it can't defend them.

[00:28:51.95] The States have done well enough.

[00:28:55.56] It's this piece of paper that's monstrous, sir. I'm telling you that we, the farmers of this state, are for freedom. And we're going to tear up this Constitution.

[00:29:04.73]

[00:29:10.16] Gentlemen. Gentlemen. We're in New York City discussing the Constitution. Sir?

[00:29:17.20] [MUSIC PLAYING]

[00:29:19.10] The following is a paid political announcement.

[00:29:22.23]

[00:29:23.22] [HORNS]

[00:29:27.69] Long live the king of France. Bow down to the king of England. Pay tribute to the emperor of Rome. And now citizen, it is your turn. Make way for the king of America.

[00:29:45.19] There is a group of people in this country plotting to steal your liberty. They want to rule over America from their so-called capital city. The President will have his castle and the Congress will be his court. When they take power, it will be forever.

[00:30:05.81] You can make sure this town will never be built. Tear down its walls of marble and steel. Support your local candidate against the ratification of the Constitution and for a free confederated America.

[00:30:24.85] Paid for by the Committee for the Articles of Confederation.

[00:30:28.54] Six weeks later, June 18th, 1788. Eight states have ratified the Constitution, but three key states-- New York, New Hampshire, and Virginia-- are just beginning the ratification process. In all three states, the Constitution faces strong opposition.

[00:30:45.67]

[00:30:47.03] [MUSIC PLAYING]

[00:30:56.15] Good evening. Tomorrow, history will be made in the town of Poughkeepsie 75 miles up the Hudson from New York City as the ratifying convention begins in an ideal setting for what promises to be a climactic debate. And here's why.

[00:31:13.30] In an exclusive CTN poll of the New York delegates, we established that only 19 unconditionally support the Constitution, whereas over 40 are against the document as written. Our two guests today should be well known to viewers who have been following the debate over the past few months.

[00:31:32.44] New York lawyer Alexander Hamilton helped frame the Constitution at the Philadelphia Convention. And I think it's now an open secret that he, in fact, is one of the so-called anonymous authors of "The Federalist Papers," which some have called brilliant. Others, like our second guest, have attacked as deceptive propaganda.

[00:31:51.44] The honorable Melancton Smith, a delegate from and former sheriff of Duchess County. He's a lawyer, merchant, and owner of some of the best farmland in Queens. Welcome to "Firing Line."

[00:32:02.87] Mr. Smith, your party seems to have a majority. This isn't going to be the rubber stamp approval of the Constitution that we have seen in other states. So let me ask you to comment, Mr. Smith. What happened in New York?

[00:32:15.90] It's simple. We're winning. In this upcoming convention, the friends of the rights of mankind outnumber the advocates of tyranny over two to one. There's probably no time since the Revolution when the rich and powerful have so little say in the running of this country. It's a victory for the little people.

[00:32:33.37] It is a victory for ambition and avarice of petty politicians who put their own personal interests above any national concern.

[00:32:41.32] Gentlemen, I think I can save you and the public a lot of time if we just cut down on the name calling. Everybody knows you dislike each other intensely. But what we are out to decide isn't which of you should be more popular, but whether we should ratify the Constitution. So might we stick to the issues?

[00:32:56.68] For me as a believer in popular government, it all comes down to this. Who in government is going to represent the great mass of the people. Who is going to stand up for the interests of the ordinary person.

[00:33:06.38] Under Mr. Hamilton's Constitution, only six or eight delegates from New York State will be sent to the so-called House of Representatives. These are going to be the rich and the famous and the well connected.

[00:33:16.06] This is utterly simplistic. Not rich, but educated and capable.

[00:33:19.80] Look, the entire House of Representatives is going to have only 65 members. It's tiny. Be honest, Hamilton. You know darn well who is going to get elected.

[00:33:27.48] Yeah, be honest, Hamilton.

[00:33:29.39] I will be.

[00:33:30.20] You're going to get the highly educated and articular people, but no one with any feeling for the ordinary person. And that's what you seem to have forgotten. Government is for the ordinary person.

[00:33:39.01] Do you object to popular government, Mr. Hamilton?

[00:33:41.87] Only in the sense that in the past record, we have had shoemakers and carpenters running governments of the states-- or what might be more appropriately termed petty republics-- for the last 10 years. And everyone has lost respect and confidence in government.

[00:33:57.04] We need an aristocracy, indeed. But it is an aristocracy of intelligence and experience. While Mr. Smith's reasoning, such as it is, it escapes me. I mean, we are, after all, living in the 18th century. We cannot continue or afford to continue running a country on the scale of a town meeting.

[00:34:13.55] What system would you prefer? The slave colony in the West Indies where you grew up.

[00:34:17.85] That's pretty [INAUDIBLE].

[00:34:18.66] You'd be perfectly comfortable living under a monarchy.

[00:34:19.82] Look, Mr. Smith, I don't have to prove my loyalty to you or to anyone else.

[00:34:22.79] OK. Are you or are you not against popular government?

[00:34:26.08] I've sincerely been trying to understand why the Constitution has had such trouble here in New York. It is, after all, a practical plan which allows popular government a chance to work in the real world. Mr. Smith and his colleagues seem to be trapped in a mindset of the '60s or '70s.

[00:34:43.35] At the time when the Articles of Confederation were adopted, a fundamental, and I think altogether too idealistic flaw, was the supposition that one, states would get along together. And two, they would all voluntarily listen to the Continental Congress, neither of which has happened. In fact, we have tried this for 10 years and it does not work.

[00:35:01.98] It works at protecting our liberties. It works at allowing the little person to be a part of government.

[00:35:06.07] It is precisely these little people, as you refer to them, who would benefit most from a stable government. I think there is a world of difference between a representative government that acts in the people's interest and the people themselves running a government.

[00:35:19.97] Hold it, Hamilton.

[00:35:21.16] You'll proclaim power to the people. But if the people really had power, then we would have mob rule and no one would be free. In fact, our very property, as it is now, would be in danger. And this is precisely what has been happening in the state legislatures for the last 10 years. It's also the cause for so much instability in the business community.

[00:35:39.45] And we don't like it.

[00:35:40.80] No, we don't.

[00:35:41.93] You don't trust popular government, do you? Representatives who have to be really in touch with the feelings of their constituents. Because they can be recalled. They go up for reelection every single year.

[00:35:52.42] What is the result of that system? A kind of idiocy in action. Representatives who vote for a law one week, and then the following week reverse it. Now, just when these gentlemen begin to understand the workings of government, they are sent back to their cows and the next bunch comes in.

[00:36:04.62] Why not do away with elections completely? Replace the power of the states with a nice permanent monarchy, Hamilton.

[00:36:10.72] Sounds interesting, doesn't it?

[00:36:12.32] I'm told that in France, Louis the 16th has made his stagecoaches run on time.

[00:36:16.38] Because I believe in the rights of free men as passionately as anyone in America.

[00:36:21.10] Look, we've only got a few minutes. And we definitely don't have time for an exegesis of your entire case in favor of the Constitution. Why don't you pick up on the point that inflames the opposition so much? What is left if we go through your constitution of states' rights?

[00:36:38.68] I think that's the one thing we don't have to worry about. As Mr. Smith has amply demonstrated, people are very loyal to their local governments. The federal government is not an intrusion on the affairs of individual states. In fact, it is far away from local concerns.

[00:36:51.81] England was far away from local concerns, yet it tried to impose its ideas--

[00:36:55.36] Come on, Smith. The Revolution is over. The federal government is not some kind of foreign power, nor are states' rights sacred. I might ask you where does government get its authority to begin with? From the people, if you remember.

[00:37:08.91] We the people have the unalienable right to propose any form of government we choose. We can indeed take some of the power entrusted to the state government and give it to a central one. In that case, the states do not have the ultimate power, nor does the federal government.

[00:37:23.33] But the people decide, which is why we have gone back to the people in these conventions. Why we are having this debate.

[00:37:29.41] A debate which, unhappily, is over. We must leave with two apparently incompatible positions which, however, will be evaluated at some length in the ratifying convention. We'll be there with live coverage of these events.

[00:37:42.20] Meanwhile, I thank you Mr. Melancton Smith. I thank you, Mr. Alexander Hamilton. Ladies and gentlemen.

[00:37:48.35] [MUSIC PLAYING]

[00:37:58.58] Two weeks later. July 2nd, 1788. New Hampshire has just ratified the Constitution. Nine of the 13 states have now ratified.

[00:38:08.08]

[00:38:14.33] July 2nd, 1788. CTN's convention special.

[00:38:20.16] Welcome to CTN's continuing live reports from the New York Constitutional Convention. This passionate debate has now entered its third week. With ratification by New Hampshire announced here last Tuesday, the Constitution has its required 2/3 majority of the states.

[00:38:36.38] But the two most influential and populous states, New York and Virginia, are still debating ratification. And unanimous adoption of the Constitution is still far from certain. Our reporter, Charlayne Hunter-Gault.

[00:38:50.79] What a debate it's been. Sometimes noisy, often heated. The greatest political minds of the state fighting for what they believe. Today, the delegates are discussing whether the Constitution should be ratified as is and amended later, as the Federalists claim, or whether New York state can make its list of amendments, including a Bill of Rights, a condition for ratification.

[00:39:13.01] Speaking for the Constitution is John Jay. Let's go to the floor.

[00:39:17.91] We're going to attach amendments to it, but then it becomes an entirely new document and we'll have to go back to the whole 13 states for approval. What I'm saying is if you don't approve it exactly as it stands-- and nobody thinks it's perfect--

[00:39:35.51] Hamilton told us it was written by God.

[00:39:39.71] Well, even if you don't approve of it, once it is passed, it'll be easier to amend with three quarters of the states than starting the whole process over again when you'll have to go back to all 13 states.

[00:39:57.64] This document, as much as the result of compromise as constructive reasoning and debate--

[00:40:05.55] Compromised too much.

[00:40:06.63] --is the best that everyone in Philadelphia could unite and agree upon. Do you Seriously. Propose that another convention could come up with anything better? Positions on both sides of the line have hardened, and I very much doubt whether we could agree on anything if we were forced to start from scratch.

[00:40:25.54]

[00:40:26.97] You are, in effect, deliberately sabotaging national unity by blocking ratification of the Constitution with these prior amendments. In the meantime, our country's problems are accumulating with compound interest. I asked you gentlemen to simply have enough trust in your fellow American to try something new.

[00:40:58.31] Give us all the power now with no guarantees and then trust us to give some of it back. Have you ever, in the history of humanity, heard of a government voluntarily giving back power once it's [INAUDIBLE]? First the amendments, then the Constitution.

[00:41:24.59] Shred the Constitution.

[00:41:30.37] You advocate change without first giving it a chance to work. And you base these changes on the merest guess of what might happen. I say to you that time and experience will bring the Constitution to perfection. First see what works and what doesn't, then make your changes.

[00:41:55.21] Order, please. [INAUDIBLE].

[00:42:01.59] This government is not only a government for us, but for our children's children. For times and situations that none of us can even imagine. But its great promise and strength of purpose will all come to nothing unless each and every state unanimously agrees to form a government that will work.

[00:42:25.44]

[00:42:30.89] Chairman. Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman.

[00:42:37.50] Order. Mr. Lansing.

[00:42:39.90] In fact, it will be extremely difficult to amend this Constitution. 2/3 of Congress or 3/4 of the states are required to make amendments. You think it's going to be easy to accomplish that? I mean, look at how it's taken us to get this group--

[00:42:53.92]

[00:43:02.64] I can't see what's happening from here. Fred?

[00:43:06.02] Charlayne. Charlayne. Charlayne.

[00:43:08.46] Can you hear me?

[00:43:09.93] Charlayne? Charlayne. Charlayne, we've just received news that has thrown this convention into an uproar. Virginia has ratified the Constitution, and has ratified the Constitution unconditionally. Mr. Roosevelt, is this going to stampede this convention?

[00:43:24.47] The only question now is does New York want to be part of a United States or doesn't it.

[00:43:29.91] Mr. Woodhull, sir.

[00:43:31.31] Yes, sir.

[00:43:31.92] Does this end the debate?

[00:43:33.38] Listen, we saw this was coming. It doesn't affect a thing. In this state, at least, the majority is backing us. And we will not be pressured into accepting a document until the rights of our citizens are secured.

[00:43:44.10] The country needs us. We need the country. And it'll work out, I promise you. They'll get the Constitution. We will get our Bill of Rights.

[00:43:56.51] So the state of Virginia, in population the largest, and in political influence and power on a par with New York, has ratified the Constitution. It now becomes the tenth state to do so, and only New York, North Carolina, and tiny Rhode Island are on the hold out.

[00:44:12.96] So now the overwhelming majority of the population supports the Constitution, and it's a whole new ball game in Poughkeepsie. Fred Graham, CTN, at the ratifying convention.

[00:44:24.41] [MUSIC PLAYING]

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[00:45:03.70] To order this wonderful collection of sheet music, cross the toll free bridge to Greenleak Publishing, 1800 Market Street. Toll free. 1800 Market Street. New Jersey, New York, and Connecticut money accepted at par.

[00:45:15.74] Four weeks later. July 28th, 1788. The New York Convention is over.

[00:45:24.05] July, 1788. It's a month that New York state's not likely to forget for a long time. Parades, riots, and that extraordinary about face on the part of key delegates at the Poughkeepsie convention. Now that things finally have calmed down, let's stand back from the events and try to understand what's happened in this, the month that shook New York.

[00:45:45.92] [MUSIC PLAYING]

[00:45:55.26] July 4th, 1788. Black Friday in Albany. This was the scene as pro and anti Constitution supporters rioted on Green Street. It started with an anti demonstration, in which a group of people publicly burned a copy of the Constitution to express in no uncertain terms their displeasure with the document.

[00:46:16.61] The Federalists were furious, and quickly organized a counter demonstration. The ensuing clash between the two gangs raged for several hours, leaving 18 wounded and one dead.

[00:46:29.95] But as passions were heating up in the street, they were cooling down on the floor of the Poughkeepsie Constitutional Convention. With the news of the victory in Virginia, the Federalist oratory stopped abruptly. They knew they were badly outnumbered and had just been stalling until the results from New Hampshire and Virginia came in.

[00:46:47.70] They figured that the New York Convention would then have no choice but to ratify. It wasn't, as they found out, all that simple.

[00:46:56.28] From July 2nd until July 10th, while the Federalists remained uncharacteristically quiet, the majority debated the list of amendments, including a Bill of Rights that they were going to attach to the Constitution. Conditional ratification seemed certain, but the Federalists were in no mood for compromise.

[00:47:15.34] The other states have accepted the Constitution unconditionally. Soon, we are going to find ourselves aliens among our father's children.

[00:47:26.87] May I remind those opposing ratification that the city of New York is the source of most of the revenue for this state. If New York does not ratify, there are people in the city ready to take up arms and separate.

[00:47:45.51] These are treasonous words, Mr. Hamilton. We are trying to keep order in this state. Let's not talk about breaking it up.

[00:47:52.84] The unstated theme of this debate, a north south split in the state, had come out in the open. The people of New York City, home of the Continental Congress and a major center of trade, were largely for the Constitution.

[00:48:06.78] The small farmers to the north of the city, worried about land taxes and a loss of autonomy, were fiercely against it. Pressure from the city was particularly felt by Anti-Federalist delegates like Melancton Smith and Samuel Jones who have major business dealings here in Manhattan.

[00:48:25.89] I move that the Constitution be ratified upon condition that a Bill of Rights be attached to it.

[00:48:35.11] And I second that motion.

[00:48:36.75] Hear, hear.

[00:48:40.49] And then, two days later--

[00:48:42.65] Mr. Smith, just two days ago, you'd support ratification only with a Bill of Rights. What happened today?

[00:48:48.47] Today, Fred, we reluctantly decided to drop the conditional ratification. We are still discussing the right to withdraw from the union if our amendments are not considered by Congress within a reasonable length of time.

[00:49:02.18] Thank you, sir.

[00:49:03.62] An incredible about face. Smith, once the spokesman for the entire anti group, is softening his position. His move threw the party into total disarray. There was talk of adjournment. Governor Clinton privately expressed great displeasure at this breaking of ranks within his group, a group that up to now had voted as a block.

[00:49:23.22] And then in the middle of everything, the parade in New York City. This is how we reported it last Wednesday.

[00:49:30.10] [CHEERS]

[00:49:41.79] On the streets of New York, a huge parade, complete with colorful floats and marching bands. And all with a very serious political purpose. The pretext for this parade was to celebrate the ratification of the Constitution by 10 of our sister states. Its real message, New York had better be the eleventh.

[00:49:59.09] Mr. Melancton Smith, Mr. Samuel Jones, the people are watching you. We want jobs. You want to do business in this town, you'd better start acting in our interest.

[00:50:17.16] For many, this is the climax of the parade. It's been given various names. The Federal Ship, the Constitution. But finally, everyone agreed to name it The Hamilton after the Constitution's strongest supporter, who is still doing battle in Poughkeepsie. And as the ship is cheered on by the spectators, it salutes them back.

[00:50:39.18] Today had its ugly side. The office of the Anti-Federalist Paper, the New York Journal, was looted, its presses smashed. Known supporters of the Anti-Federalist cause were careful to stay out of sight, far away from the main events.

[00:50:53.09] At the convention in Poughkeepsie, opposition to the Constitution continued to crumble. John, how did Hamilton and his party pull this off?

[00:51:01.51] Well, Walter, Hamilton, whose lofty speeches left them unmoved, nevertheless succeeded in planting the seeds of doubt. He scared them. Anti-Federalists, particularly men like Melancton Smith and Samuel Jones, were torn in two.

[00:51:15.14] On the one hand, they felt an almost messianic zeal to get those amendments attached to the Constitution. But they couldn't risk even the remote possibility that New York would be rejected from the union. If this happened, their supporters would turn against them with a fury and their party would be dispersed. As Jones put it, like sheep on a mountain.

[00:51:35.36] So at the very last moment, despite their enormous majority, the opposition does seem to have lost their nerve. And even men like Jesse Woodhull voted for ratification.

[00:51:56.55] Interestingly enough, it was the Federalist John Jay, that great healer who came up with the face saver, a letter to be attached to New York's ratification urging the states to start a countrywide movement for a Bill of Rights as soon as possible. The letter began, "It was only New York's invincible reluctance to separate from her sister states that convinced a sufficient number of delegates to vote for ratification." Smith put it less diplomatically.

[00:52:23.70] It's a change in tactics. We still believe that as a basis for government, the Constitution is radically defective. We still believe in the amendments, including a statement of rights. But to best argue our views, New York just had to be a full fledged member of this new government right from the beginning. I am now sure that a Bill of Rights will be strongly supported by a majority of the states.

[00:52:47.22] In a way, everyone seems to feel they've won. New York state has ratified the Constitution, ratified it unconditionally. But the voice of the majority has come through loud and clear.

[00:53:00.39] Robert Yates, who was opposed to the Constitution right from the beginning, summed up everyone's feelings at the conclusion of the debates.

[00:53:07.45] Well, I was against it. I did everything in my power to fight it. Well, we lost. It's been ratified through all of the land. Now the time has come for us to set aside our differences. It's my duty, it's the duty of every American, to defend and protect our Constitution.

[00:53:32.29]

[00:53:40.84] And it was a squeaker. 27 against and only 30 supporting ratification. As a state, we accepted the Constitution, but we did so with strong reservations, reservations which became the basis of the Bill of Rights.

[00:53:55.16] Now history has proven that both sides were right. And out of their arguments came the solid foundations for a new country, a country of a size and power that no one then' could have possibly envisioned.

[00:54:07.99] A recent biographer of Hamilton put it this way. "In 1788, France was ruled by a king, China by an emperor, Russia by a czar, and Japan by a shogun. All of those proud regimes and scores of others have passed into history. In the entire world, one of the few governments that has remained at its basis unchanged is the federal union put together by New York and the other states 200 years ago."

[00:54:37.34] Our ancestors, all of them, fought passionately for their different viewpoints. But they were men united in the belief that government by the people means government by compromise. We have survived as a nation precisely because we continue to tolerate the views of the minority in our government by the majority.

[00:54:56.80] This is our legacy from the past. And 200 years later, this is what we celebrate today. Because that's the way it was July 27th, 1788. I'm Walter Cronkite. Good night.

[00:55:11.38] [MUSIC PLAYING]