WEBVTT

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Good morning, everyone.

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My name is Anthony Holmes

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I did thirty three years in a penitentiary.

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I spent eight years and some months
wrongfully convicted before being freed.

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I was falsely accused of a crime
that I had no knowledge of

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and I was given 200 to 400 years.

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My name is Tabitha Pawlick.

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I was convicted

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in 1995 of my daughter\'s murder.

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It\'s a long awaited experience,

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you know, to finally show my innocence.

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Hello.

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This is like the rest of your life
in prison.

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Or freedom.

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When I found out
that I was having an internship

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at the Center on Wrongful Convictions,
I was excited.

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You know, I was ready for new experiences.

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And most of the students are coming
this experience with a somewhat

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of a privileged background.

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When I

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first walked up to the center,
I was nervous.

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I was wondering if,
will I just not be prepared

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for the kinds of things
that I\'ll encounter at a place

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like this?

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Good morning.

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My name is Jane Raley, and I\'ve not met

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you before.

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I\'m an attorney at the Center on Wrongful
Convictions.

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The center identifies and rectifies

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wrongful convictions and other serious
miscarriage ages of justice.

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I think that the experiences that you\'re
about to have in the following weeks

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may truly be transformative in your life.

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We have decided to represent a man
by the name of Marcus Wiggins,

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and it\'s my understanding
that you are going to be part of this team

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and you are going to be available
to assist us in our investigation.

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And so I\'d like to take this time

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to find out a little bit
about you and make introductions.

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You are? I\'m Kirsten Krofchick.

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Very nice to meet you.

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Okay.

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Okay. Hi, everybody.

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This is Katie Wynbrandt.

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Okay, It\'s going now.

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Oh, wait.

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No, I don\'t.

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You press recording once
and then you press it again.

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Is recording, but it\'s not.

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Actually, there\'s the red light right
now. Okay. Okay.

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Okay.

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What\'s up?

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My name is Abbas Khan.

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My name is Ilana Moradi,
and I\'m a third year student

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and I\'m a third year
law student at Northwestern.

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My dream is to go to Harvard
or Yale Law School.

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I\'m a history major, so I\'m interested
in, throughout American history,

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different discrepancies in the law.

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I don\'t really know
much about the legal system.

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I mean, I know a little from class
and well, from TV

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that doesn\'t really count.

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Right now,

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I\'m just trying to enjoy my life
as a college kid.

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I remember thinking,
I don\'t know if I can do this.

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I don\'t know if I can be involved
and read the horrible things

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that happen to people
and, you know, maintain my sanity.

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I started working
working on this case in September of 2009.

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First of all,
I think we should start by saying

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that this was a crime
that occurred in 1999,

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and Marcus was charged
and convicted of first degree murder

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of a man
by the name of Theopolis Teague,

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and he was sentenced
to 46 years in prison.

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We should talk a little bit about,
you know, how

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difficult it is

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to take an old case and to prove something
called actual innocence.

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There has to be positive
evidence of actual innocence

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before we call a case an exoneration.

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We\'re not a criminal defense operation.

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We represent people in innocence
cases, period.

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One of the things that the people
who are wrongfully convicted

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find out very quickly is that it
takes a much greater amount of evidence

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to set you free than it took
to convict you in the first place.

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Most people take it for granted that

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if you accused by a prosecutor

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or a state\'s attorney,
then you must be guilty.

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And the same is true
of the general public.

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They think the same thing.

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If somebody is accused, he must be guilty.

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But as you will see,
while you\'re here at the clinic

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and reviewing some new material,
as you\'ll be wondering,

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you\'ll be aghast as,
how could this happen?

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Marcus Wiggins
has been through the legal process.

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He really has nowhere to go.

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I mean, he has been
through the appellate process and he lost.

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And, you know, there\'s
something called finality at some point.

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You know,
you have to have finality in a finding.

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The only thing we can do is
we can investigate this case.

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And if we think we have we
we can prove actual innocence.

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Then we can file a petition

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called the Petition for Post-Conviction
Relief based on actual innocence.

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But this is very, very difficult.

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This is very difficult.

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You know, we\'re dealing with, again,
a cold case.

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He\'s procedurally defaulted
and we don\'t have DNA.

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So we have our work cut out for us.

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As I\'ve said before, we\'ve got
a huge hurdle that we have to jump over.

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So I think that we\'ll meet again
very soon and, you know, will

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start our investigation to be a part of
that.

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Is really crazy.

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I think that,

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you know, a wonderful starting place
in any investigation.

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You know, it starts with the client
with Marcus Wiggins, and we have to know

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and understand our client.

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I have spoken to Marcus

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several times on the telephone,
but I have not met him in person.

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But I can tell you a couple of things.

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Number one, that he does have a stutter.

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Number two, he\'s a very quiet,

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very quiet person.

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I really thought I got a sense of Marcus,
but it was still a little scary

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and a little intimidating
having that phone ring for the first time.

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I had set up my first

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legal phone call with a client in prison
talking to me.

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He\'d never met me.

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I didn\'t know if he would trust me.

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I\'m just. I\'m this random undergrad.

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Jane laughed and closed the door,
and it was just me and Marcus.

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So he was just really willing to tell me
about everything and was just so nice.

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I felt a little bit guilty
asking him about things.

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Oh, our client is Marcus Wiggins,

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and we interviewed his sister Talitha.
They came into the center

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and told us a little bit about Marcus,
Marcus’ personality and his childhood.

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But it was his stepfather and his sister.

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Yeah. Yeah.

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And the interviews were really different,
but the sister was very open.

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Oh, he was the funniest person
you\'ll ever know.

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He imitated a lot of people from TV.

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Like James Brown.

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He used to dance like James Brown,
and we used to crack up, laugh.

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And my mom bought him a Billie
Jean jacket.

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It was red.

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And he had this little sparkly glove
and these ugly boots Daddy used to wear.

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He was really outgoing.

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He, you know, had a lot of friends.

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Everybody was crazy about him.

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We have a strong relationship.

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It\'s just kind of hard when,

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you know, he\'s in a

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place that he\'s at
and there\'s nothing I can do about it.

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And I don\'t,
I kind of distance myself from him

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sometimes because I don’t know
how to do,

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I’m about to cry.

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Because I don\'t know how to deal with it.

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But for the most part,
I try to stay in contact

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cause I know that he need
us more than anything.

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than he ever need us before.

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I can assure you,

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once you visit a client,
you become inspired

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and it really motivates you
to delve more thoroughly

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into the case.

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Today is a big day.

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We\'re going to visit Marcus
for the very first time.

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We have to drive a long way from Chicago
to the southern part of the state.

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Right now, we are on our way
to Pinckneyville to see Marcus.

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I expect him

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to be happy to see us
because I\'m sure it\'s

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nice to have any visitors.

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It was my first time
visiting someone in person.

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I think we spent about 4 hours with him,

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so that\'s about the longest
time I\'ve been in prison.

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Hey Marcus, how’s it going?

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What’s up hatch, how you doin?
Fine, I’m fine.

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My name is

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Marcus Umaine Wiggins.

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This is my case

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on dealing with

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the lawsuit and all that. Oh, yeah.

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I, you know, wanna settle outta court.

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I got.

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I got a lot of stuff.

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It\'s just some of it.

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So if these were the people
you were with

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the night that the shooting
of Hernandez happened?

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Yeah, affidavits, stuff like that.

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Yeah.

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That’s about me.

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Yeah,

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it\'s frustrating, man.

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It is frustrating.

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When I read my transcripts,

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I\'ll be like, man, this is crazy.

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It\'s just don\'t, it don\'t make sense.

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It\'s hard.

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No, I\'m saying you\'ve been on

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being locked up for all this time.

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For something,

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something you ain’t do.

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I deal with it

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every day

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Basically trying to

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keep my head straight,

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to stay focused

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and not going

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crazy.

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It’s really on them

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to really come out as this speak
the truth about what happened.

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A few hours with Marcus

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have completely changed
how I feel about this internship.

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Until now, everything has been on paper,
and now this whole case

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and wrongful convictions in general
have a real human face for me.

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The students are in many ways,

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the lifeblood of our organization.

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They will be involved

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in every step of the process
doing that basic investigative work.

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And we could not exonerate our clients
without them.

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And the thing about these reports
is they\'re basically

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they\'re not necessarily
one sided or the other.

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They\'re just the facts
like what was found

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or so you think, of course.

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When I first read the file,

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I felt confused.

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That\'s really the word
I should use to describe it.

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They identified him as the driver alone.

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It seems kind of strange to recognize him

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from behind with, like a headrest
and through the rearview.

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All of the witnesses
and the different players involved.

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It\'s really complicated.

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There was a lot of weirdness
about his defense.

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The people that they chose
not to bring to the stand and testify.

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And I\'m just
I have a lot of questions of why

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We need to know

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and express opinion on

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how the how
the police investigation was conducted.

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We need to know his opinion
and what steps should have been taken,

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what steps weren\'t taken,
what makes it more or less likely

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that this crime happened in the way
it said it happened

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or happened at all?

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Today is January 8th, 2010.

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Two days ago, on January 6,

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I went to the home of William Dorsch,
who is a retired homicide detective

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and currently an investigation
expert.

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Through a vacant lot the offenders chased him,

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shooting while he was chasing them,

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striking him in the spine
and grazing him in the right front.

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Now that there was no evidence
of in the autopsy.

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Yeah, well,
this is the preliminary report.

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-Yeah.
-It\'s written by a patrol officer, ok?

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He does an initial report,
and he may give this report

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from the best of his information
to the detectives,

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but it may turn out that
none of this is even accurate.

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The detectives
should do a much better investigation.

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Could the crime have really happened

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the way it was
described in the police reports?

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Let\'s see,

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-Maybe here.
-What happened?

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Theopolis Teague was 17 years old,
a teenager.

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February 17th of 1998 was Theopolis Teague’s
last day on this earth.

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He was standing in the street
when he was shot at.

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He was chased down the street, chased
through a vacant lot and hunted down

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in an alley where he was shot in the back
by the defendant.

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Marcus Wiggins.

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Theopolis Teague was murdered
between nine and ten in the morning,

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and Marcus was arrested
for the crime early in the afternoon,

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just a few hours later.

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It\'s very fast.

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We\'re wondering how the police could be
so sure that Marcus was the murderer.

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One big impression you get is that a lot
of the details just don\'t make sense.

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We feel like we have to find

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a different way
to understand the case better.

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One of the first things I do
is I read every report,

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and then the next thing I do
is I go to a crime scene

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because I can ask
credible questions of people

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if I don\'t understand
what I\'m talking about.

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It was the first crime scene

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I\'ve ever been to, that\'s for sure.

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It was a really kind of crazy experience

00:18:36.240 --> 00:18:39.240
or a very enlightening experience

00:18:39.840 --> 00:18:42.280
to visit the neighborhood

00:18:42.280 --> 00:18:45.280
or area where a lot of this took place,

00:18:46.480 --> 00:18:49.240
relying on what the police report said.

00:18:49.240 --> 00:18:52.000
And I should say
some of them were conflicting.

00:18:52.000 --> 00:18:55.200
This was the corner here at Marshfield
and 52nd

00:18:56.280 --> 00:18:58.320
where...

00:18:58.760 --> 00:19:01.920
Marcus is alleged
to have gotten out of his car.

00:19:02.200 --> 00:19:04.200
Here\'s the alley in between.

00:19:05.800 --> 00:19:07.720
They started to run

00:19:07.720 --> 00:19:10.720
Farley, Tyler, and Teague,

00:19:10.760 --> 00:19:13.760
but they ran through the empty lot.

00:19:14.160 --> 00:19:16.720
So he was shot in the alley up here.

00:19:16.720 --> 00:19:18.360
He was lying in the alley.

00:19:18.360 --> 00:19:21.680
You read about the case,
you try to imagine what happened,

00:19:22.280 --> 00:19:24.960
but it becomes a lot more realistic

00:19:24.960 --> 00:19:30.080
when you\'re actually standing
on the corner where it occurred

00:19:30.080 --> 00:19:33.640
or in the alleyway where
Theapolis Teague was shot and murdered.

00:19:34.040 --> 00:19:36.880
The shooting was somewhere
around here, the spray of bullets.

00:19:51.240 --> 00:19:52.720
Supposedly about 13

00:19:52.720 --> 00:19:55.720
shots were fired
when Theapolis Teague died.

00:19:57.120 --> 00:19:59.360
How could no bullets be found

00:19:59.360 --> 00:20:01.240
in this abandoned lot?

00:20:13.600 --> 00:20:16.400
Did the police
come to the scene for the car accident?

00:20:16.400 --> 00:20:17.520
No, no, no.

00:20:17.520 --> 00:20:19.800
So really, it might just
never have happened?

00:20:20.440 --> 00:20:23.800
You\'re not the first person
who has suggested that. Some people

00:20:23.800 --> 00:20:27.760
have looked at this record and said
maybe it just didn\'t happen at all.

00:20:27.960 --> 00:20:30.720
I got to take a common sense
look at what the surroundings are.

00:20:30.720 --> 00:20:34.800
If this really happened
the way the prosecution said it was,

00:20:35.200 --> 00:20:38.920
or would it be more conducive to a body
being dumped out of the back of the car?

00:20:41.280 --> 00:20:42.840
Alana decided to drive back

00:20:42.840 --> 00:20:46.240
up to see Bill Dorsch
and ask him a few more questions.

00:20:52.360 --> 00:20:55.880
I told him about the
evidence that was collected,

00:20:55.880 --> 00:20:57.600
the evidence that wasn\'t collected,

00:20:58.000 --> 00:21:02.080
and asked him what he thought
about everything.

00:21:02.080 --> 00:21:05.280
And he was able to confirm
some of our suspicions.

00:21:07.040 --> 00:21:08.160
All right.

00:21:08.160 --> 00:21:11.720
So it appears that they have never done
the cars, they have never done

00:21:11.760 --> 00:21:12.400
a crime scene.

00:21:12.400 --> 00:21:14.440
They\'ve never done a canvass.

00:21:17.640 --> 00:21:18.680
All right.

00:21:18.680 --> 00:21:21.360
So there\'s a problem here
because it doesn\'t sound like the police

00:21:21.360 --> 00:21:24.360
went back to the scene
to really look for the bullet evidence.

00:21:24.480 --> 00:21:27.360
You really don\'t have
the ballistic evidence

00:21:27.360 --> 00:21:30.600
because there\'s no shell casings found,
which you have only as testimony

00:21:30.600 --> 00:21:34.920
from people to say, I heard so many shots
and you never know

00:21:34.920 --> 00:21:39.240
how many bullets you fired until it\'s over
and you can check your weapon.

00:21:39.480 --> 00:21:40.080
Okay.

00:21:40.080 --> 00:21:42.480
The detectives
got the call to go to the hospital.

00:21:44.080 --> 00:21:47.400
At the hospital, they had the victim
who\'s deceased.

00:21:47.400 --> 00:21:50.320
They probably had the witnesses there.

00:21:50.320 --> 00:21:53.560
They acquired a name
and they pursued the offender

00:21:54.000 --> 00:21:57.360
and the crime scene was not done
and definitely no canvass done.

00:21:57.720 --> 00:21:59.240
That\'s that\'s big.

00:21:59.240 --> 00:22:00.960
And that\'s typically done.

00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:03.960
It should be done, but it\'s

00:22:04.320 --> 00:22:07.320
evidently it\'s not done
because there should be a report that says

00:22:07.760 --> 00:22:11.600
I went to 2842
at the three flat apartment.

00:22:11.600 --> 00:22:14.520
I rang each and every bell
and I talked to people on the first floor.

00:22:14.520 --> 00:22:17.600
Second floor wasn\'t home
and I talked to people on the third floor.

00:22:17.600 --> 00:22:20.720
Well, that means you got to go back
and talk to the second floor

00:22:20.720 --> 00:22:21.760
because nobody was home.

00:22:21.760 --> 00:22:23.920
Somebody\'s got to go back again.

00:22:23.920 --> 00:22:26.280
You need as many witnesses as you can get.

00:22:26.280 --> 00:22:29.040
You got to you have to make the effort.

00:22:29.040 --> 00:22:31.320
It\'s essential that that be done.

00:22:31.320 --> 00:22:32.800
The other thing that didn\'t end up in

00:22:32.800 --> 00:22:35.800
evidence were the clothing
that topless Teague was wearing.

00:22:35.800 --> 00:22:39.560
The coroner and his autopsy report
said that the body

00:22:39.760 --> 00:22:43.880
was received with a red T-shirt
and some boxer shorts.

00:22:44.240 --> 00:22:49.040
But this was February in Chicago
and certainly the obvious Teague

00:22:49.040 --> 00:22:52.040
would have been wearing more clothing
and that when he was murdered,

00:22:52.720 --> 00:22:57.600
if data into a gunshot residue test,
you can ask for a gunshot residue test

00:22:57.840 --> 00:23:01.520
on Marcus\'s clothing
if they\'re still around.

00:23:01.880 --> 00:23:02.520
Well, I would

00:23:03.960 --> 00:23:05.040
if they didn\'t take it from.

00:23:05.040 --> 00:23:06.720
Yeah.

00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:09.400
Where those clothing are, we don\'t know.

00:23:09.400 --> 00:23:11.160
No bullet, no clothes.

00:23:11.160 --> 00:23:14.160
I mean, he should have been called
to the hospital to recover that.

00:23:14.200 --> 00:23:17.280
And also, they should have been sent
to the crime scene, you know, So

00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:19.480
it doesn\'t fit. Really.

00:23:19.480 --> 00:23:20.520
It doesn\'t fit.

00:23:20.520 --> 00:23:25.680
Mr. Dorsch was able to to confirm
that something went wrong

00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:28.720
with the police work
and that there were a lot of flaws.

00:23:29.480 --> 00:23:31.480
All right, that\'s it.

00:23:32.040 --> 00:23:37.240
The case seems to stink, like
there\'s a lot that seems off about it.

00:23:37.640 --> 00:23:39.840
I didn\'t think it would be

00:23:40.080 --> 00:23:43.080
so obvious that there were in

00:23:43.800 --> 00:23:46.080
errors made or, you know,
missing information.

00:23:46.080 --> 00:23:49.080
The evidence that we were presented with,
when I saw it, I was just like, well,

00:23:49.200 --> 00:23:50.880
it\'s obvious he isn\'t guilty.

00:24:13.560 --> 00:24:16.080
The other thing that we can\'t forget is

00:24:16.080 --> 00:24:20.200
the fact that Marcus Wiggins had an alibi
at the time of this crime. And,

00:24:21.280 --> 00:24:23.440
you know, there\'s an old adage

00:24:23.440 --> 00:24:26.720
that the, you know, criminal case,
there\'s no such thing as a good alibi.

00:24:26.920 --> 00:24:30.240
And it\'s because you can always poke,
unless you\'re on camera.

00:24:31.400 --> 00:24:33.920
You can always poke holes in an alibi.

00:24:33.920 --> 00:24:38.280
And alibis are always, of course, suspect
when they come from your family

00:24:38.280 --> 00:24:39.120
or your friends.

00:24:39.120 --> 00:24:40.400
But, you know, think about,

00:24:40.400 --> 00:24:44.240
you know, what your alibi would be
if you were accused of a of a crime.

00:24:44.240 --> 00:24:45.680
You know, on a Friday or Saturday night,

00:24:45.680 --> 00:24:48.680
you\'re going to be with your friends
or you\'re going to be with your family.

00:24:49.040 --> 00:24:51.120
In this case, you know,
we have a situation

00:24:51.120 --> 00:24:54.840
where Marcus Wiggins
was somewhere else at the time.

00:24:57.120 --> 00:24:57.600
We need to

00:24:57.600 --> 00:25:00.600
know where he was the day
the crime occurred,

00:25:00.760 --> 00:25:03.400
how the arrest took place,

00:25:03.400 --> 00:25:06.400
and who can prove his alibi.

00:25:07.920 --> 00:25:09.120
He was in motion to get out.

00:25:09.120 --> 00:25:12.120
He was just like offering
to go get the rent money.

00:25:12.480 --> 00:25:13.960
I\'ll be back.

00:25:13.960 --> 00:25:14.760
So Marcus said,

00:25:14.760 --> 00:25:18.920
Okay, I\'ll be right back and let me go
see, go find my mom or whatever.

00:25:18.920 --> 00:25:21.920
But I\'m going to go
get their part of the rent.

00:25:22.360 --> 00:25:25.360
He wasn\'t gone
no more than about 20 minutes.

00:25:25.920 --> 00:25:27.240
He came in the door,

00:25:27.240 --> 00:25:31.040
...he picked up the baby.

00:25:31.680 --> 00:25:34.040
He like, here go the money.

00:25:34.040 --> 00:25:35.760
Good to see your mom,

00:25:35.760 --> 00:25:36.840
And I\'m like, okay.

00:25:36.840 --> 00:25:42.840
So he lay down, put the TV on, picked up
my daughter, laid on him as usual,

00:25:43.800 --> 00:25:46.600
and he was just watching TV.

00:25:46.600 --> 00:25:50.080
2 minutes later,
the police was breaking my door down

00:25:50.400 --> 00:25:52.080
with guns everywhere.

00:25:52.080 --> 00:25:55.160
I’m screaming,
saying he got the baby in his hand.

00:25:55.320 --> 00:25:56.920
Don\'t shoot, don\'t shoot.

00:25:56.920 --> 00:26:00.560
They was so rude, very rude.
And I was mad.

00:26:00.560 --> 00:26:02.000
And I say, Marcus in the back.

00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:05.000
He was holding my daughter

00:26:05.200 --> 00:26:08.040
and they was like holding a gun,
telling me

00:26:08.040 --> 00:26:09.480
if he move, they\'re going to shoot.

00:26:09.480 --> 00:26:11.040
If he tried to run.

00:26:11.040 --> 00:26:15.280
And they grabbed my grandbaby up by one
arm and slung her to me.

00:26:16.240 --> 00:26:19.200
And as they was taking him down
the stairs, I was asking what happened?

00:26:19.200 --> 00:26:20.760
What he do?

00:26:20.760 --> 00:26:22.440
They weren’t giving me no answers

00:26:22.440 --> 00:26:25.920
and from that day,
I haven’t seen him no more.

00:26:25.920 --> 00:26:28.160
When they come out with their guns,
they say,

00:26:29.280 --> 00:26:30.960
we want to talk to you.

00:26:30.960 --> 00:26:33.960
Why do y\'all want to talk to me
with all your

00:26:34.840 --> 00:26:36.240
guns out?

00:26:36.240 --> 00:26:38.720
If anything, you all should
have came and said,

00:26:38.720 --> 00:26:42.080
We want to talk to you,
cause I\'m not arrested for anything.

00:26:42.080 --> 00:26:44.040
I\'m not.

00:26:44.040 --> 00:26:47.040
They had didn\'t have a warrant for me.

00:26:47.640 --> 00:26:50.040
So they came to my house and said,

00:26:50.040 --> 00:26:52.880
We need to talk to you about a rape.

00:26:52.880 --> 00:26:54.360
A rape?

00:26:54.360 --> 00:26:56.680
The fact that there was

00:26:56.680 --> 00:27:00.720
no physical evidence in this crime
also makes me

00:27:00.720 --> 00:27:04.280
think about how easy it was for Marcus

00:27:04.280 --> 00:27:05.320
to be convicted.

00:27:28.080 --> 00:27:29.720
You know, the other...

00:27:31.120 --> 00:27:33.040
part of this case that makes no sense

00:27:33.040 --> 00:27:35.720
is the whole car issue.

00:27:35.760 --> 00:27:39.120
Marcus Wiggins had a black
Chevrolet at the time.

00:27:39.480 --> 00:27:41.720
You know,
he said, you know, could not have been me.

00:27:41.720 --> 00:27:45.080
I wasn\'t driving that car
because my car was in the repair shop.

00:27:45.680 --> 00:27:49.600
And, you know, certainly
the police believe that

00:27:49.600 --> 00:27:53.560
his car was involved because they went to
where his car was being repaired.

00:27:53.560 --> 00:27:57.320
They had it towed and then they destroyed
it within a few weeks.

00:27:59.080 --> 00:28:02.360
-Why?
-The way the opening statements

00:28:02.360 --> 00:28:06.040
were talking about how Marcus Wiggins
was on a mission,

00:28:06.040 --> 00:28:07.760
like making it seem like

00:28:08.240 --> 00:28:11.640
Marcus Wiggins
wanted to kill for a purpose.

00:28:12.640 --> 00:28:14.160
But what is the purpose?

00:28:14.160 --> 00:28:16.320
It just doesn\'t make sense
because I could say like,

00:28:16.320 --> 00:28:19.200
Oh, if he hit Wiggins’ car,
then he got angry,

00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:21.120
but he didn’t hit Wiggins’s car.

00:28:21.120 --> 00:28:24.200
And then also the fact that his car
was a different color.

00:28:24.200 --> 00:28:25.440
Just all these things.

00:28:25.440 --> 00:28:28.440
I know Jane was talking about
how she was going to interview

00:28:28.440 --> 00:28:31.880
the previous lawyer and find out,
but there has to be something there.

00:28:33.200 --> 00:28:34.960
We need to know more about the car

00:28:34.960 --> 00:28:37.600
he was driving at the time
the crime occurred.

00:28:38.280 --> 00:28:42.720
Investigations was trying to find out
what had happened to the car.

00:28:42.880 --> 00:28:46.440
The police had confiscated his car
and inventoried his car

00:28:46.640 --> 00:28:51.320
and I put in a stop order to, you know,
keep the car intact.

00:28:51.600 --> 00:28:56.720
It is very unusual for them to destroy
a piece of evidence while case is pending.

00:28:56.920 --> 00:29:01.280
And the fact that his car was destroyed
by the time I got assigned to the case

00:29:02.640 --> 00:29:03.920
was very unsettling.

00:29:04.440 --> 00:29:04.880
Okay.

00:29:04.880 --> 00:29:09.280
Well, first, we\'re looking for the witness
who sold Marcus the car

00:29:09.280 --> 00:29:10.280
that was inoperable.

00:29:10.280 --> 00:29:11.320
What kind of car?

00:29:11.320 --> 00:29:13.560
It was a Chevrolet Celebrity.

00:29:13.560 --> 00:29:16.400
It was black with
white on the front.

00:29:16.400 --> 00:29:21.600
So the color of the car was probably
one of the most important pieces.

00:29:22.560 --> 00:29:25.200
So the car that he said he owned

00:29:25.200 --> 00:29:28.920
was destroyed by the police,
I had like an old picture of it,

00:29:29.240 --> 00:29:32.360
talked to witnesses
because his car is black.

00:29:32.600 --> 00:29:36.000
But the car that was described in
the shooting was burgundy and maroon.

00:29:36.160 --> 00:29:38.160
Then that could not be the car used.

00:29:48.360 --> 00:29:49.320
Those are all cars.

00:29:49.320 --> 00:29:51.200
Yeah, it\'s a lot of cars.

00:29:51.200 --> 00:29:53.240
Is she like a car dealer?

00:29:53.240 --> 00:29:53.800
There we go.

00:29:53.800 --> 00:29:56.800
There\'s a 1985 Chevy Celebrity.

00:29:58.760 --> 00:29:59.760
What is it? Does it...

00:30:00.880 --> 00:30:02.840
Got it, let’s see that.

00:30:03.360 --> 00:30:05.280
Okay, so here\'s a phone number.

00:30:05.280 --> 00:30:07.720
This is the most current address. Okay?

00:30:07.720 --> 00:30:10.680
This is a phone number
that\'s connected to that address.

00:30:10.680 --> 00:30:13.080
It doesn\'t mean that it’s accurate.
Okay. Yeah.

00:30:13.080 --> 00:30:14.360
Will that be helpful?

00:30:14.360 --> 00:30:14.960
Yeah, that\'ll be

00:30:14.960 --> 00:30:16.480
That\'ll be really helpful.

00:30:18.200 --> 00:30:19.160
That\'s right. Okay.

00:30:19.160 --> 00:30:22.160
Thank you. Bye bye.

00:30:22.320 --> 00:30:24.680
-Hi.
-Sorry am I interrupting stuff?

00:30:24.680 --> 00:30:25.200
Come on in.

00:30:25.200 --> 00:30:26.040
Okay. What’s going on?

00:30:26.040 --> 00:30:28.720
We found a few exciting things.

00:30:29.040 --> 00:30:30.240
This is the car she said.

00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:32.640
It was a 1985
Chevrolet Celebrity.

00:30:33.320 --> 00:30:35.160
We have the tag number.

00:30:35.160 --> 00:30:37.680
We have the VIN number.

00:30:37.680 --> 00:30:38.880
This is wonderful.

00:30:38.880 --> 00:30:43.000
So this is the person who claims
that she sold

00:30:43.800 --> 00:30:49.760
Marcus the car that he had at the time
this crime occurred.

00:30:49.760 --> 00:30:52.760
The car that he claimed
was in the car shop.

00:30:52.760 --> 00:30:53.280
Right.

00:30:53.280 --> 00:30:56.600
That would be that.
That is wonderful news.

00:30:56.600 --> 00:30:57.960
That is that\'s great.

00:30:57.960 --> 00:31:00.240
So what we want to do
is we want to find her.

00:31:00.240 --> 00:31:02.640
We want to interview her,
and we want to talk to her

00:31:02.640 --> 00:31:05.760
about what was wrong with this car
when she sold it to Marcus.

00:31:12.280 --> 00:31:14.520
Yes, Tamika Gayton, please.

00:31:14.520 --> 00:31:17.520
Oh, Tamika, my name’s Margaret Soffen.

00:31:18.600 --> 00:31:21.800
I\'m looking for information
about a vehicle that you sold

00:31:21.800 --> 00:31:25.080
to Marcus Wiggins about ten years ago.

00:31:27.000 --> 00:31:30.000
Marcus Wiggins.

00:31:32.160 --> 00:31:35.640
It was a 1985 Chevy Celebrity.

00:31:37.320 --> 00:31:39.120
Let me tell you why I\'m calling.

00:31:39.120 --> 00:31:42.200
I am an attorney and I am working on...

00:31:43.080 --> 00:31:45.400
Pardon me?

00:31:47.280 --> 00:31:51.520
Oh. She hung up.

00:31:54.520 --> 00:31:57.480
I probably shouldn\'t have said attorney.

00:31:57.840 --> 00:31:59.240
Yeah, I think it scared her.

00:31:59.240 --> 00:32:01.880
That\'s why it\'s nice when students call.

00:32:01.880 --> 00:32:03.000
Yeah.

00:32:03.000 --> 00:32:05.440
There is no physical evidence in the case.

00:32:05.440 --> 00:32:08.240
He was convicted completely based on

00:32:08.240 --> 00:32:11.240
witness testimony
or supposed witness testimony.

00:32:11.480 --> 00:32:14.600
We have a situation
where the crime scene does not make sense,

00:32:15.520 --> 00:32:18.040
does not make sense
that certain evidence was destroyed

00:32:19.000 --> 00:32:20.520
shortly after the crime occurred.

00:32:20.880 --> 00:32:26.040
All of those are puzzles, in this case,
but that\'s all we have at this point.

00:32:26.040 --> 00:32:29.320
And that\'s not enough to file a petition
based on actual innocence.

00:32:49.520 --> 00:32:52.520
Hi, my name\'s Kristen Krofchick.

00:32:53.320 --> 00:32:55.920
So that would be afterwards.

00:32:55.920 --> 00:32:56.600
He testified.

00:32:56.600 --> 00:32:59.600
Was he asked about his prior record?

00:33:09.520 --> 00:33:10.120
You know, we have to

00:33:10.120 --> 00:33:13.360
sort of decide where our investigation
is going to take us

00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:18.840
and the way I see it, he was convicted
based on the testimony of an R.L. Mahan.

00:33:19.680 --> 00:33:23.920
He was convicted based on the testimony
of a Cedric Farley, and he was convicted

00:33:23.920 --> 00:33:26.920
based on the testimony
of the Kelly Stokes.

00:33:32.880 --> 00:33:35.160
But we need to hear from a witness

00:33:35.160 --> 00:33:39.440
who actually testified at trial
that, you know, I lied.

00:33:39.880 --> 00:33:41.400
I testified falsely.

00:33:41.400 --> 00:33:43.480
You know, for this reason,
we need to hear that

00:33:43.480 --> 00:33:46.760
and we need to have a witness
feel comfortable putting that on paper.

00:33:55.560 --> 00:33:58.320
What we do know, though,
is that R.L. Mahan

00:33:58.320 --> 00:34:02.520
did tell people
that he also lied in the trial

00:34:02.680 --> 00:34:06.320
against Marcus Wiggins and that Marcus
Wiggins was not there that day.

00:34:06.600 --> 00:34:07.560
So he had recanted.

00:34:07.560 --> 00:34:08.520
He had told Marcus,

00:34:08.520 --> 00:34:12.000
his ex-girlfriend, that he lied
and he had told an attorney that he lied.

00:34:13.400 --> 00:34:17.080
One day I was
I think I was going to the store or

00:34:18.160 --> 00:34:20.120
coming from the store
or something like that.

00:34:20.120 --> 00:34:21.520
And he walked up to me.

00:34:21.520 --> 00:34:23.560
He said,

00:34:24.480 --> 00:34:27.400
“Hey” and I’m looking at him and I’m like,

00:34:27.400 --> 00:34:28.320
you know, I\'m talking to my man.

00:34:28.320 --> 00:34:30.000
Why is you talking to me?

00:34:30.000 --> 00:34:33.680
And he said, Well,
then we talked to all Marcus’ mom.

00:34:33.960 --> 00:34:38.200
So I called on the phone and I told her,
I said, R.L. right here.

00:34:38.240 --> 00:34:39.360
he wanna talk to you.

00:34:39.360 --> 00:34:41.040
She like, no!
What he wanna talk to me for?

00:34:41.040 --> 00:34:44.040
He just want to talk to you
and let you know, see what he can do

00:34:44.040 --> 00:34:47.400
to help Marcus’ case,
because he know that he didn\'t do that.

00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:49.360
So they talked on the phone.

00:34:49.960 --> 00:34:52.840
On the day that he was
going to go sign a paper

00:34:52.840 --> 00:34:57.000
saying that he
he testified falsely at Marcus\' trial,

00:34:57.240 --> 00:34:58.800
he was shot in the mouth and killed.

00:35:14.040 --> 00:35:15.280
Perhaps the most damaging

00:35:15.280 --> 00:35:18.680
testimony at trial came from this man
by the name of Cedric Farley.

00:35:19.000 --> 00:35:22.000
And I think he\'s key to the case.

00:35:22.680 --> 00:35:24.840
Cedric Farley is the one
who viewed a lineup

00:35:24.840 --> 00:35:27.920
and identified
Marcus Wiggins as the shooter.

00:35:28.560 --> 00:35:33.440
And we have not been able to locate him
as of this date.

00:35:33.560 --> 00:35:36.800
And so we are going to need the assistance

00:35:36.800 --> 00:35:39.800
of a private investigator.

00:35:46.880 --> 00:35:48.480
My name is Cynthia Estes.

00:35:51.000 --> 00:35:54.000
I grew up on the South Side of Chicago,

00:35:57.120 --> 00:36:01.320
I was thinking we could
go to the Fairfield address,

00:36:05.400 --> 00:36:07.120
Cedric Farley, if you out there man.

00:36:07.120 --> 00:36:11.080
And I just hope that you find out
all the facts, man.

00:36:11.080 --> 00:36:14.080
And really

00:36:14.400 --> 00:36:16.680
come forth, man, and

00:36:16.680 --> 00:36:18.840
tell you the truth.

00:36:18.840 --> 00:36:20.680
Because I ain\'t kill your cousin.

00:36:28.040 --> 00:36:28.960
There goes Jimmy.

00:36:28.960 --> 00:36:34.160
And we just talked to Jimmy,
and he is the nephew of Cedric.

00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:38.760
So this is the best lead
we\'ve had yet on Cedric.

00:36:38.960 --> 00:36:40.320
He was actually very nice.

00:36:40.320 --> 00:36:41.760
I mean, a lot of had to do with

00:36:41.760 --> 00:36:44.760
Cynthia’s brilliant talking there.

00:36:45.680 --> 00:36:47.120
I talked fast.

00:36:47.120 --> 00:36:48.280
I talked really fast.

00:36:48.280 --> 00:36:51.280
I told him he was good
looking about 25 times,

00:36:51.960 --> 00:36:52.960
but that didn\'t do it.

00:36:52.960 --> 00:36:55.960
He doesn\'t know who the Teagues are

00:36:56.000 --> 00:36:59.000
and he doesn\'t know who our client is.

00:36:59.240 --> 00:37:01.360
Cedric is coming back.

00:37:01.360 --> 00:37:04.640
It\'s like Thursday afternoon from Memphis.

00:37:05.160 --> 00:37:09.000
So there\'s a possibility
he could maybe talk to Cedric,

00:37:09.000 --> 00:37:11.040
maybe Thursday.

00:37:15.360 --> 00:37:18.040
So when Cedric Farley showed up

00:37:18.040 --> 00:37:21.040
and found his cousin on the ground, shot,

00:37:21.840 --> 00:37:24.720
supposedly he asked, Who did this to you?

00:37:25.840 --> 00:37:27.400
So.

00:37:27.400 --> 00:37:30.400
What that tells me, though,
is having to ask

00:37:30.480 --> 00:37:34.320
victim the question, who did this to
you tells me that he doesn\'t know.

00:37:35.000 --> 00:37:38.000
That means he doesn\'t see the shooting.

00:37:50.960 --> 00:37:54.040
Where are we on trying to
locate Cedric Farley?

00:37:54.440 --> 00:37:57.120
Well, the last time Abbas

00:37:57.120 --> 00:38:00.000
and Alana and I went out,
and that was early November,

00:38:00.000 --> 00:38:03.000
we went to an address that we were given

00:38:03.240 --> 00:38:06.840
and we spoke to a young man, I would say

00:38:07.640 --> 00:38:11.240
16, 17 years old, maybe,
whose name was Maurice.

00:38:12.240 --> 00:38:15.840
And he said, Cedric Farley is his uncle

00:38:16.800 --> 00:38:19.800
and that he does not live at that home.

00:38:19.960 --> 00:38:22.720
He does not know where Cedric
Farley lives.

00:38:22.720 --> 00:38:25.720
So that\'s the last update on the Farley

00:38:25.760 --> 00:38:27.320
situation.

00:38:51.520 --> 00:38:53.200
Kelly Strokes

00:38:53.200 --> 00:38:56.680
was a guy who testified
against me.

00:38:57.440 --> 00:38:58.360
I knew his whole family.

00:39:00.800 --> 00:39:02.120
Kelly Strokes.

00:39:02.120 --> 00:39:04.200
He said

00:39:04.200 --> 00:39:06.560
that the homicide detective

00:39:06.560 --> 00:39:08.800
forced him to say what he said.

00:39:08.800 --> 00:39:09.520
When I told him

00:39:09.520 --> 00:39:12.120
Kelly on the phone, Kelly said, “Marcus”.

00:39:12.120 --> 00:39:14.400
He said, Marcus, man. I\'m so sorry.

00:39:14.400 --> 00:39:16.040
I\'m so sorry I had to do that.
He said that

00:39:16.040 --> 00:39:19.040
them dirty detective made me do it.

00:39:22.240 --> 00:39:25.680
The Kelly Stokes situation,
we found his house.

00:39:25.680 --> 00:39:30.800
We went to his house and we found someone
who called themselves Kelly Stokes.

00:39:31.200 --> 00:39:33.840
And there was some confusion
because this guy looked

00:39:33.840 --> 00:39:36.880
really way too old to be our Kelly Stokes.

00:39:37.320 --> 00:39:40.440
And it turns out he\'s Kelly Stokes senior.

00:39:40.440 --> 00:39:44.680
The man that we want to speak
to was younger and he was not available

00:39:50.120 --> 00:39:53.040
The next court date is on the 14th.

00:39:53.040 --> 00:39:53.960
Who\'s that?

00:39:53.960 --> 00:39:56.440
-Kelly Stokes.
-He’s in jail?

00:39:56.440 --> 00:39:58.480
He\'s not. He\'s not.

00:39:58.480 --> 00:39:59.680
I think he\'s out.

00:40:00.880 --> 00:40:02.840
Either way, we could catch
him at the courthouse, right?

00:40:02.880 --> 00:40:05.880
Right on the 14th. Yeah.

00:40:06.480 --> 00:40:08.200
Call for...

00:40:08.440 --> 00:40:11.000
So that\'s the number we call.

00:40:11.440 --> 00:40:12.120
Let\'s just call.

00:40:12.120 --> 00:40:15.120
Yeah. Yeah. Abbas,
you want to do that? Yes.

00:40:15.360 --> 00:40:17.360
And find out

00:40:18.400 --> 00:40:20.120
if he\'s there.

00:40:24.000 --> 00:40:26.160
This morning

00:40:26.160 --> 00:40:29.040
I met Margaret in the city.

00:40:29.040 --> 00:40:31.960
Okay, so this is Kristin talking,

00:40:31.960 --> 00:40:35.480
and me and Margaret
are leaving the criminal courthouse.

00:40:36.080 --> 00:40:39.080
Okay, so there\'s Margaret driving.

00:40:39.560 --> 00:40:43.520
We went to try to find Kelly Stokes

00:40:44.200 --> 00:40:47.120
Because I feel a little bit
like stalking him.

00:40:47.120 --> 00:40:48.960
I met him.

00:40:48.960 --> 00:40:52.160
This is the third time
I\'ve spoken face to face with him.

00:40:52.320 --> 00:40:55.080
The first time was

00:40:55.080 --> 00:40:58.440
at his house while he was engaged in

00:40:58.600 --> 00:41:01.760
business activities, standing outside.

00:41:01.760 --> 00:41:04.600
And he really didn\'t want us to be there.

00:41:04.600 --> 00:41:06.400
He was very nervous about us.

00:41:06.400 --> 00:41:09.720
At first we didn\'t see him for a while,
and we were kind of nervous like,

00:41:10.560 --> 00:41:12.240
where is he?

00:41:12.240 --> 00:41:12.760
You know?

00:41:12.760 --> 00:41:15.720
And then he came in the door
and Margaret recognized him.

00:41:15.720 --> 00:41:17.960
He turned around,
he nodded at me.

00:41:18.640 --> 00:41:20.200
And he was with his girlfriend.

00:41:20.200 --> 00:41:23.040
And I spoke to her and said,
How\'s the baby?

00:41:23.040 --> 00:41:24.000
So we said hello.

00:41:24.000 --> 00:41:26.440
And then he asked
if we were there for him.

00:41:26.440 --> 00:41:28.800
And Margaret said, Yes, we are.

00:41:28.800 --> 00:41:31.920
And so he sort of motioned and said,
Let\'s go outside and talk about this.

00:41:32.080 --> 00:41:33.360
We went outside
the courtroom

00:41:33.760 --> 00:41:34.600
and I showed him the

00:41:34.600 --> 00:41:38.400
affidavit and I asked him to read it.

00:41:38.400 --> 00:41:41.840
And see if there was anything in there
that was inaccurate.

00:41:42.200 --> 00:41:44.440
He read over the entire thing.

00:41:44.440 --> 00:41:46.080
He said there was no problems with it.

00:41:46.080 --> 00:41:48.960
That it was all accurate.

00:41:48.960 --> 00:41:51.760
And he said

00:41:51.760 --> 00:41:53.000
he signed it

00:41:53.880 --> 00:41:54.520
Basically,

00:41:54.520 --> 00:41:56.360
it was actually that easy.

00:41:56.360 --> 00:41:58.040
And surprisingly.

00:42:00.600 --> 00:42:02.080
Really very little drama.

00:42:02.080 --> 00:42:03.760
He just read it and signed it.

00:42:03.760 --> 00:42:07.360
And then he said for us to tell Marcus,
what up?

00:42:07.840 --> 00:42:09.880
What up to Marcus from Kelly Stokes.

00:42:09.880 --> 00:42:13.600
So then when he signed it,
it was just like, Oh my gosh,

00:42:14.520 --> 00:42:18.000
you know, it felt like a huge step to me,
like this thing that we wanted for

00:42:18.000 --> 00:42:19.400
so long is finally happening.

00:42:19.400 --> 00:42:22.680
And it\'s just one step closer to Marcus,

00:42:23.000 --> 00:42:26.640
you know, to getting his petition filed
and for Marcus to be freed.

00:42:50.400 --> 00:42:51.240
We found

00:42:51.240 --> 00:42:54.240
Kelly Stokes finally
and we got him to sign an affidavit.

00:42:54.480 --> 00:42:57.480
But one affidavit, one

00:42:58.440 --> 00:43:01.080
re-revised statement by Kelly

00:43:01.080 --> 00:43:04.080
is not enough to get a judge

00:43:04.200 --> 00:43:06.280
to let Marcus out of prison.

00:43:10.280 --> 00:43:13.240
This is a really hard case.

00:43:13.240 --> 00:43:17.880
The facts are so complicated
and we\'re hitting all sorts of dead ends

00:43:17.880 --> 00:43:23.040
when we\'re trying to find witnesses
or uncover new evidence.

00:43:23.240 --> 00:43:26.120
And it can be really

00:43:26.120 --> 00:43:29.160
frustrating, in part
because I think I came to the clinic

00:43:29.160 --> 00:43:33.960
thinking that it would be a little easier
to prove someone\'s innocence.

00:43:34.520 --> 00:43:37.520
I\'ll tell you, the hardest thing we do

00:43:38.400 --> 00:43:41.400
is to tell somebody who you

00:43:41.400 --> 00:43:44.120
who we believe might well be innocent.

00:43:44.120 --> 00:43:45.840
Sorry, we can\'t help you.

00:43:45.840 --> 00:43:48.600
I mean, that\'s really hard.

00:43:48.600 --> 00:43:49.680
I mean, and

00:43:50.960 --> 00:43:53.960
if people knew, you know,

00:43:54.000 --> 00:43:57.000
how much we really care
and how much we\'d like to help,

00:43:57.440 --> 00:44:00.440
but we just can\'t

00:44:01.640 --> 00:44:03.560
have a whole lot of hope.

00:44:03.560 --> 00:44:05.040
I hope,

00:44:05.040 --> 00:44:08.760
but I pray every night for him

00:44:09.920 --> 00:44:12.280
and his safe return back home.

00:44:12.280 --> 00:44:15.280
But a lot of times I feel like, you know,

00:44:15.840 --> 00:44:18.840
when is it ever going to come?

00:44:32.040 --> 00:44:35.040
I can\'t even begin to imagine
what it\'s like for them.

00:44:35.320 --> 00:44:38.400
It\'s sort of like a constant loss.

00:44:38.400 --> 00:44:40.320
Always, like always grieving a loss,

00:44:40.320 --> 00:44:44.440
but never able to move on from it
because he\'s not really gone.

00:44:44.440 --> 00:44:47.080
He\'s somewhere, but,

00:44:47.080 --> 00:44:49.080
you know, he\'s not with them

00:44:49.080 --> 00:44:52.080
and he\'s so far removed from them. So.

00:45:28.600 --> 00:45:32.040
And I\'d like to believe
that it would be a good outcome.

00:45:32.640 --> 00:45:36.640
But at this point,
we don\'t really have a case.

00:45:41.320 --> 00:45:42.880
I think that there will
be a break in the case.

00:45:42.880 --> 00:45:43.920
I truly believe that.

00:45:43.920 --> 00:45:49.720
And I don\'t know when it will happen
or what it will be,

00:45:50.280 --> 00:45:52.720
but I think that something will break.

00:46:03.040 --> 00:46:05.320
I’m glad that Jane is working to help him.

00:46:05.320 --> 00:46:08.280
Just meeting her, I know
that she cares so much and

00:46:09.040 --> 00:46:12.280
will not stop
until something is done.

00:46:14.320 --> 00:46:15.440
One of the other reasons

00:46:15.440 --> 00:46:19.480
we decided to get involved in representing
Marcus Wiggins

00:46:19.480 --> 00:46:24.440
is because of what happened to him
when he was, you know, a 14 year old.

00:46:25.000 --> 00:46:28.400
He was tortured and beat

00:46:29.200 --> 00:46:33.480
by a group of officers who were
under the command of John Burge.

00:46:33.720 --> 00:46:40.200
One thing that has been suggested to us
is that this more recent charge of murder

00:46:40.640 --> 00:46:45.600
was made in retaliation for the fact
that his family successfully sued

00:46:46.640 --> 00:46:48.120
these police officers.

00:46:48.120 --> 00:46:51.120
Some of the officers who were involved

00:46:51.120 --> 00:46:55.120
in, you know, the torture
he suffered at age 14

00:46:55.680 --> 00:46:57.320
were very interested

00:46:57.320 --> 00:47:00.640
in what was happening to him in this case.

00:47:01.080 --> 00:47:04.560
And so that is something that, you know,
we will be looking into.

00:47:05.160 --> 00:47:08.160
Are any of the policemen
that were involved with Burge or working

00:47:08.360 --> 00:47:11.040
underneath him still on the force?

00:47:11.640 --> 00:47:12.920
Yes.

00:47:14.320 --> 00:47:15.160
Yeah.

00:47:15.160 --> 00:47:18.000
And they know that this is going on,

00:47:18.000 --> 00:47:21.000
-that these cases are being.
-Yes.

00:47:29.760 --> 00:47:32.160
A Chicago teenager is following
a civil rights lawsuit

00:47:32.160 --> 00:47:35.480
against former police commander
John Burge, former police superintendent

00:47:35.480 --> 00:47:37.800
Leroy Martin and other police officers

00:47:37.800 --> 00:47:38.640
He’s charging them

00:47:38.640 --> 00:47:41.640
with torture for an alleged incident
that occurred a year and a half ago.

00:47:41.960 --> 00:47:43.600
Channel Seven\'s Rush Ewing has the story.

00:47:44.760 --> 00:47:45.160
The suit

00:47:45.160 --> 00:47:48.840
charged that Marcus Wiggins
was falsely arrested by area three

00:47:48.840 --> 00:47:52.440
Chicago policemen and beaten and tortured
with electric shock.

00:47:52.920 --> 00:47:57.840
The act allegedly occurred in 1991
when Wiggins was 13 years old.

00:47:58.280 --> 00:48:01.720
Former police commander
John Burge was in charge of area three

00:48:01.720 --> 00:48:06.000
at that time, and the suit charges
that men under Burges’ supervision

00:48:06.160 --> 00:48:10.600
violated the juvenile\'s rights
in an effort to force a murder confession

00:48:10.600 --> 00:48:11.560
out of him.

00:48:11.560 --> 00:48:15.880
The suit further charges
that the 13 year old was held for 24 hours

00:48:15.880 --> 00:48:20.160
in an adult facility and not allowed
to see an attorney or his mother.

00:48:20.280 --> 00:48:26.000
They wouldn\'t let me see him.
I sat there on the police steps, asking them

00:48:26.000 --> 00:48:28.440
could I get up to see my son?

00:48:28.440 --> 00:48:29.840
They wouldn’t let me up.

00:48:47.240 --> 00:48:49.360
My name is Julie Hull.

00:48:49.360 --> 00:48:52.320
I am here today
to talk about Marcus Wiggins.

00:48:54.000 --> 00:48:57.000
Back in 1991 and 92,

00:48:57.080 --> 00:49:00.080
everyone was concerned
about juvenile crime.

00:49:00.840 --> 00:49:03.720
And at that time,
when the police were arresting people,

00:49:03.720 --> 00:49:09.560
they simply realized that the victim in
this case was a 15 year old Hispanic kid.

00:49:09.560 --> 00:49:13.640
And they assumed because he was Hispanic,
that the regular suspects

00:49:13.640 --> 00:49:16.480
in the neighborhood
would be African-Americans.

00:49:16.480 --> 00:49:19.880
And they went around and rounded up
11 African-Americans,

00:49:19.880 --> 00:49:22.880
took him into custody, including Marcus.

00:49:23.160 --> 00:49:26.000
When Marcus’ case came to me,

00:49:26.000 --> 00:49:28.920
I learned
that the sergeants were under Burge.

00:49:28.920 --> 00:49:30.000
It was a Burge case.

00:49:30.000 --> 00:49:32.400
I know the detectives worked for Burge.

00:49:32.400 --> 00:49:34.520
And I became alert.

00:49:35.040 --> 00:49:36.960
I noticed that when Marcus

00:49:36.960 --> 00:49:41.000
had reported to the Audi Home,
he had indicated

00:49:41.000 --> 00:49:45.160
in his intake form that he had been beaten
by the detectives in the face.

00:49:45.160 --> 00:49:46.680
He had been beaten in the chest.

00:49:47.920 --> 00:49:49.240
His mother told me

00:49:49.240 --> 00:49:52.880
that he had told her
that he had been shocked,

00:49:53.040 --> 00:49:56.040
that he had been shocked,
and she didn\'t know what he meant.

00:49:56.040 --> 00:49:58.560
And she was quite upset by that.

00:49:58.560 --> 00:50:01.080
And I thought, well,
this is an interesting pattern

00:50:01.080 --> 00:50:03.520
and practice that I should look into.

00:50:04.080 --> 00:50:07.080
Chief in my division, Xavier
Velasco, about it

00:50:08.040 --> 00:50:11.520
and got the go ahead from him to pursue it

00:50:12.040 --> 00:50:15.040
as a serious case, especially after having

00:50:16.520 --> 00:50:18.200
discovered that Marcus had been held

00:50:18.200 --> 00:50:21.200
in the police station for over 25 hours,

00:50:22.240 --> 00:50:25.320
learning that his aunt had gone
to the police station

00:50:25.320 --> 00:50:28.320
and found him curled up in a ball,
sucking his thumb on the floor,

00:50:28.920 --> 00:50:34.560
finding that the other adolescents,
16 year olds,

00:50:35.280 --> 00:50:39.360
had been transferred from Area three
violent crimes to Area one violent crimes

00:50:39.840 --> 00:50:43.520
after a private attorney had been notified
to come to the police station

00:50:43.520 --> 00:50:45.000
to represent them.

00:50:45.000 --> 00:50:47.760
The police had decided
to get them the heck out of there.

00:50:48.720 --> 00:50:50.600
Sometimes that\'s a practice that

00:50:50.600 --> 00:50:53.880
you hear about that
when a lawyer shows up to represent

00:50:54.720 --> 00:50:58.880
the arrestees,
you know, to invoke their rights,

00:50:59.160 --> 00:51:02.160
the police take them out back door
and get them out of there.

00:51:02.440 --> 00:51:03.600
And you hear those rumors,

00:51:03.600 --> 00:51:06.120
but what was unique about this
particular case

00:51:06.120 --> 00:51:09.160
is that those rumors were true and the way
we know they were true

00:51:09.600 --> 00:51:13.560
is those adolescents,
the 16 year olds escaped

00:51:14.040 --> 00:51:17.640
from the squad roll in area one,
and they were charged with escape.

00:51:17.640 --> 00:51:19.080
So we have proof

00:51:19.080 --> 00:51:22.600
that the police moved them from area
three to area one to avoid the lawyer.

00:51:22.880 --> 00:51:25.920
So there were a number of things
about this case

00:51:25.920 --> 00:51:28.520
that seem really wrong.

00:51:32.040 --> 00:51:35.280
We have to know how Marcus\'s story
fits into the bigger picture.

00:51:35.640 --> 00:51:37.800
His torture was not a solitary event.

00:51:58.640 --> 00:52:00.160
What I believe is that

00:52:00.160 --> 00:52:03.160
John Burge saw this treatment

00:52:03.800 --> 00:52:07.960
when he was a military policeman in
Vietnam and may have participated in it.

00:52:07.960 --> 00:52:12.360
I\'ve interviewed men from the unit
that he served with who admit to having

00:52:12.800 --> 00:52:16.640
inflicted torture, had been present
when torture took place.

00:52:17.040 --> 00:52:19.720
So I think Burge came back,
joined the police force,

00:52:19.720 --> 00:52:23.600
and once he got into an interrogation
room, once he began to use it,

00:52:23.880 --> 00:52:26.880
other people followed him.

00:52:28.600 --> 00:52:31.600
I think most people in this area,
you know,

00:52:32.320 --> 00:52:35.320
I think their attitude
would have been, well, they deserved it,

00:52:36.080 --> 00:52:36.880
you know?

00:52:36.880 --> 00:52:39.880
So you say you had to use some
some rough methods

00:52:40.160 --> 00:52:42.120
and that\'s not unusual.

00:52:42.120 --> 00:52:45.480
That\'s the same thing
that\'s going on right now with

00:52:45.480 --> 00:52:48.480
it\'s the base in Cuba, Guantanamo.

00:52:49.200 --> 00:52:52.200
If you got to get answers,
how are you going to get it?

00:52:52.800 --> 00:52:55.360
If you have to use,
you know, some rough methods?

00:52:55.360 --> 00:52:59.520
I mean, a lot of people the attitude
is, you know, the end justifies the means.

00:53:00.520 --> 00:53:02.520
Torturing suspected terrorists

00:53:02.520 --> 00:53:05.520
is horrible,
because you don\'t torture anyone.

00:53:05.640 --> 00:53:08.640
Using the same methods to torture

00:53:08.720 --> 00:53:11.400
suspected terrorists as you use

00:53:11.400 --> 00:53:14.640
to torture American civilians

00:53:16.320 --> 00:53:19.440
who are in no way
suspects to a crime.

00:53:20.760 --> 00:53:23.760
I mean, can you even.

00:53:46.320 --> 00:53:46.640
Hello?

00:53:46.640 --> 00:53:47.320
Hello.

00:53:47.320 --> 00:53:48.600
Hello, ladies. Hi.

00:53:48.600 --> 00:53:50.320
How you doing today? Good.

00:53:50.320 --> 00:53:51.760
All right. Yeah.

00:53:51.760 --> 00:53:53.480
Come in. Okay.

00:53:53.480 --> 00:53:56.880
We are working on this case
for a Marcus Wiggins case.

00:53:57.000 --> 00:53:57.400
Mm hmm.

00:53:57.400 --> 00:54:00.680
And we’re hoping
that he becomes exonerated.

00:54:00.680 --> 00:54:03.040
And we know that you are an exoneree.
Correct.

00:54:03.040 --> 00:54:04.840
And how long were you in prison for?

00:54:04.840 --> 00:54:07.640
24 years. 24 years.

00:54:07.640 --> 00:54:09.720
Oh, no joke. Yeah.

00:54:09.720 --> 00:54:14.040
And the last 9 of those 24 years,
was did at Tamms Supermax.

00:54:14.960 --> 00:54:16.840
That\'s where you were locked up
24 hours a day.

00:54:16.840 --> 00:54:18.560
Everything you do, you do by yourself.

00:54:19.200 --> 00:54:20.800
How did you...

00:54:20.800 --> 00:54:22.360
deal?

00:54:23.280 --> 00:54:26.040
In a short period of words,

00:54:26.040 --> 00:54:29.760
I can say by the grace of God,
I survived, you know,

00:54:29.760 --> 00:54:34.800
plus the fact that my parents raised
a stubborn boy.

00:54:35.280 --> 00:54:39.000
You know that
every time you put me in a situation

00:54:39.000 --> 00:54:42.840
where you say you\'re going to make me
do something, I do just the opposite.

00:54:44.160 --> 00:54:47.680
So in Tamms,
they said that they would break

00:54:47.680 --> 00:54:50.320
you mentally, physically, spiritually.

00:54:50.320 --> 00:54:52.080
I said, No, you won\'t.

00:54:52.080 --> 00:54:54.040
And that was the stubbornness.

00:54:54.040 --> 00:54:58.040
And orneriness in me that kept me going

00:54:58.040 --> 00:55:00.400
and allowed me to survive.

00:55:03.040 --> 00:55:05.280
Daryl is taking us to the place
he was tortured

00:55:05.280 --> 00:55:07.840
so we can get a better idea
of how it happened.

00:55:07.840 --> 00:55:10.400
Keep straight

00:55:10.400 --> 00:55:11.240
all the way down.

00:55:11.240 --> 00:55:13.240
You going
past the filling stations, everything.

00:55:16.600 --> 00:55:18.320
They did tell me that

00:55:18.320 --> 00:55:22.080
they had a scientific way
of, quote, interrogating niggers.

00:55:22.840 --> 00:55:25.920
No, I didn\'t know what that means,
other than I\'d say, Well, you know,

00:55:25.920 --> 00:55:28.320
they\'re going to beat me up a little bit,
you know? Okay, cool.

00:55:28.320 --> 00:55:29.640
I\'m ready for it, come on.

00:55:30.000 --> 00:55:33.600
But what they did to me, I had no idea.

00:55:53.360 --> 00:55:54.800
And then they let you out

00:55:54.800 --> 00:55:59.040
and did it just begin?
-They told me to look around.

00:55:59.920 --> 00:56:03.000
In fact, the exact words were,
Look around, nigger.

00:56:03.800 --> 00:56:05.600
Nobody\'s going to see you.

00:56:05.600 --> 00:56:07.960
Nobody\'s going to hear you.

00:56:07.960 --> 00:56:09.360
Or anything else.

00:56:09.360 --> 00:56:11.800
We can do anything we want
to do to you here.

00:56:11.800 --> 00:56:14.800
And they proceeded to do just that.

00:56:15.200 --> 00:56:16.920
They put you in a room.

00:56:17.600 --> 00:56:19.520
And while you’re in that room

00:56:19.520 --> 00:56:20.560
The man sit up and tell you

00:56:20.560 --> 00:56:21.880
you gonna tell me what I wanna know.

00:56:21.960 --> 00:56:24.200
You look at him like, man,
I don’t know what you talkin’ about.

00:56:24.200 --> 00:56:25.720
But he don’t wanna hear that.

00:56:25.720 --> 00:56:27.520
So he take a plastic
bag, put over your head

00:56:28.520 --> 00:56:29.720
he tell you don’t bite through it

00:56:29.720 --> 00:56:31.600
you better not bite through it,
and I bit through it.

00:56:31.600 --> 00:56:33.760
Because of the fact that I couldn’t breathe.

00:56:35.040 --> 00:56:36.560
And he slap me outta the chair for it.

00:56:36.560 --> 00:56:37.840
But that\'s all right.

00:56:37.840 --> 00:56:40.200
I still try to hold on
because I said, man...

00:56:40.200 --> 00:56:42.080
somebody\'s going to come and stop it.

00:56:42.080 --> 00:56:43.920
Didn’t nobody come.

00:56:43.920 --> 00:56:45.160
That I know of.

00:56:45.160 --> 00:56:48.080
Then nobody care really, because

00:56:48.080 --> 00:56:52.800
the man tortured me for,
I could say hours, I could say a week.

00:56:52.800 --> 00:56:54.240
But I don\'t know how long it was.

00:56:54.240 --> 00:56:57.240
All I know is from the time
I was in that room,

00:56:57.280 --> 00:56:58.840
with them plastic bags.

00:56:59.920 --> 00:57:01.280
Them...

00:57:02.520 --> 00:57:04.520
shocking me.

00:57:08.360 --> 00:57:10.640
You think about this.

00:57:10.640 --> 00:57:14.280
If you take an electric cattle prod
and you stick it to a cow,

00:57:15.280 --> 00:57:18.240
as tough as a cowhide is,

00:57:18.240 --> 00:57:21.240
it’ll make the cow jump and run
like a racehorse.

00:57:21.360 --> 00:57:26.360
So now imagine that being stuck
to a human being, you know, to your skin.

00:57:27.480 --> 00:57:30.000
Most of the time you see police role on
somebody to do something

00:57:30.000 --> 00:57:33.000
to somebody, you heard about them beat
you up, you know, something like that.

00:57:33.000 --> 00:57:34.400
Okay, so you get beat up.

00:57:34.720 --> 00:57:35.560
But you don\'t get tortured.

00:57:35.560 --> 00:57:37.760
You don\'t get almost killed.

00:57:37.760 --> 00:57:39.000
You know, you don\'t get electrocuted.

00:57:39.000 --> 00:57:41.440
You know, needles
going through your body.

00:57:41.440 --> 00:57:44.560
Feel like a thousand needles going
through your body at one time.

00:57:45.480 --> 00:57:48.480
Your whole life flash in front of you.

00:57:48.800 --> 00:57:52.800
You go numb, you lose the grips in your hands.

00:57:53.240 --> 00:57:54.360
You know, your ankles.

00:57:54.360 --> 00:57:57.360
You got handcuffs on your
ankles with electric shocks to it,

00:57:57.440 --> 00:57:59.320
electricity going through your body.

00:57:59.320 --> 00:58:01.520
You jumping on the floor,
like with like somebody throwing like,

00:58:01.520 --> 00:58:03.320
like you\'re having a seizure
or something.

00:58:03.800 --> 00:58:05.160
People standing up there laughing at you,

00:58:05.160 --> 00:58:06.640
calling you niggers, stuff like that

00:58:13.360 --> 00:58:14.880
It got to a point where

00:58:15.520 --> 00:58:17.360
it was like, man,

00:58:20.040 --> 00:58:21.640
say that

00:58:21.640 --> 00:58:24.640
they wanted me to say something that

00:58:25.400 --> 00:58:28.400
[unclear]

00:58:28.400 --> 00:58:31.400
So um,

00:58:31.480 --> 00:58:35.040
that’s when they brought in the small box.

00:58:36.760 --> 00:58:39.760
and when they brought that
in, they put it on the table

00:58:40.520 --> 00:58:42.880
and he took my hands

00:58:42.880 --> 00:58:45.880
and put it on the table
and told me if I move

00:58:47.320 --> 00:58:49.080
what he would do to me.

00:58:49.080 --> 00:58:51.720
So I put my hands on the table,

00:58:51.720 --> 00:58:53.400
and uh,

00:58:53.400 --> 00:58:56.520
he put the wires...

00:58:56.520 --> 00:59:00.040
the metal pieces on my hand.

00:59:00.840 --> 00:59:02.120
And he shocked me.

00:59:02.120 --> 00:59:05.120
And when he shocked me, I felt this

00:59:06.360 --> 00:59:08.080
electric stuff

00:59:08.080 --> 00:59:11.080
going through my body.

00:59:11.480 --> 00:59:14.480
I felt my eyes going on around my head.

00:59:15.080 --> 00:59:16.800
My jaw

00:59:16.800 --> 00:59:18.560
and my teeth just gripped it.

00:59:24.920 --> 00:59:27.800
When they got through,
I blanked out.

00:59:27.800 --> 00:59:29.200
I fell on the table.

00:59:40.680 --> 00:59:43.440
It got to the point where

00:59:43.440 --> 00:59:45.880
I was willing to say my mother did it.

00:59:46.920 --> 00:59:49.920
And they came around with a statement and

00:59:51.160 --> 00:59:54.680
and had me to sign it. After signing,

00:59:55.920 --> 00:59:58.920
they put me in a bullpen

00:59:58.920 --> 01:00:01.920
and they took me out to an Audi home.

01:00:03.000 --> 01:00:05.400
Why would you torture somebody
if you got to right evidence?

01:00:05.400 --> 01:00:06.560
You don\'t have to.

01:00:06.560 --> 01:00:09.560
You just take them to court and
present your evidence, and you got’em.

01:00:15.000 --> 01:00:16.800
Present is Aaron Ferrell,

01:00:16.800 --> 01:00:19.440
Assistant Public Defender.
Shawn Tyler.

01:00:20.080 --> 01:00:21.960
Julie Hull, Assistant Public Defender.

01:00:21.960 --> 01:00:26.920
What happened with Wiggins, that made it
such a unique case was, was that you had

01:00:27.360 --> 01:00:31.880
an eyewitness who rang the doorbell
of the family of the victim

01:00:32.160 --> 01:00:34.920
and told them their son had been shot.

01:00:34.920 --> 01:00:36.360
He was kneeling down.

01:00:36.360 --> 01:00:38.960
Jesse Plemons fired two shots and ran.

01:00:38.960 --> 01:00:41.240
And now they\'ve got a problem
because they\'ve got an eyewitness

01:00:41.240 --> 01:00:43.920
who says, well,
one person did the shooting,

01:00:43.920 --> 01:00:47.040
but how do you explain away
these other kids confessing?

01:00:47.320 --> 01:00:49.680
Why do you confess to a
crime that you didn\'t commit?

01:00:50.840 --> 01:00:53.280
Well, you do it if you\'re tortured.

01:00:55.200 --> 01:00:56.160
A Chicago teenager

01:00:56.160 --> 01:00:59.560
is filing a civil rights lawsuit
against former police commander, John Burge.

01:00:59.600 --> 01:01:04.320
Judge Strayhorn knew that, that it was
a dangerous situation when he issued his

01:01:05.760 --> 01:01:07.920
his protective order,

01:01:07.920 --> 01:01:11.000
in this case
for fear of what would happen,

01:01:11.240 --> 01:01:14.120
ordering no Chicago police officers

01:01:14.120 --> 01:01:15.800
to have any contact.

01:01:16.800 --> 01:01:18.600
When I went to court,

01:01:18.600 --> 01:01:21.680
the judge, he must have had
all of them come to court,

01:01:21.960 --> 01:01:23.600
cause all of them was there.

01:01:26.440 --> 01:01:28.440
I pointed them out,

01:01:29.160 --> 01:01:32.160
and we went from there.

01:01:33.720 --> 01:01:36.560
The cops that tortured
Marcus weren\'t fired,

01:01:36.560 --> 01:01:39.560
but the main guy,
John Burge, who was their boss,

01:01:39.560 --> 01:01:41.480
he got fired a few months later.

01:01:41.480 --> 01:01:45.120
So we have this this motive of retaliation
that we should be thinking

01:01:45.120 --> 01:01:46.800
about in the back of our minds.

01:01:51.720 --> 01:01:54.360
I do believe strongly

01:01:54.360 --> 01:01:57.360
that Marcus Wiggins
second murder case is related

01:01:57.520 --> 01:02:01.720
to his first murder case in ways
that I\'m not at privilege to speak about

01:02:03.080 --> 01:02:04.520
at all.

01:02:06.360 --> 01:02:07.880
I think this answered a lot of question.

01:02:07.880 --> 01:02:11.560
Julie answered a lot of questions
about the first case and kind of about

01:02:11.560 --> 01:02:14.560
how it may
be connected to the second case.

01:02:14.720 --> 01:02:16.320
But we still have this second case

01:02:16.320 --> 01:02:18.080
that is the big question.

01:02:18.080 --> 01:02:21.080
Like how did this happen?

01:02:21.120 --> 01:02:21.880
How could it happen?

01:02:21.880 --> 01:02:24.800
And I mean, we have theories but

01:02:24.800 --> 01:02:28.720
and theories based on evidence
and testimony, but it still seems really...

01:02:28.760 --> 01:02:31.760
I just can\'t understand
how it could happen.

01:02:31.760 --> 01:02:34.240
And they have still gotten away with it.

01:02:35.160 --> 01:02:37.320
I can’t understand the system, I guess.

01:02:37.560 --> 01:02:40.880
I\'d like to, like,
read through the actual trial.

01:02:57.920 --> 01:03:00.160
We were all confused

01:03:00.160 --> 01:03:03.160
and at first we weren\'t sure.

01:03:05.440 --> 01:03:08.760
We realized that a lot of the office,
police officer names

01:03:08.760 --> 01:03:12.800
that we were seeing on the papers
and in the file for the ‘98 case

01:03:13.240 --> 01:03:17.280
were also in the 1991 case
when Marcus was tortured.

01:03:18.480 --> 01:03:19.800
Also, O’Brien.

01:03:19.800 --> 01:03:22.040
He was the same one who hit me
in the head with the flashlight

01:03:22.040 --> 01:03:23.560
when I was 13 years old.

01:03:25.320 --> 01:03:27.640
Stuck his head in the door

01:03:27.840 --> 01:03:29.240
and say,

01:03:30.120 --> 01:03:32.120
and say yeah,
we got your ass now.

01:03:32.480 --> 01:03:36.280
We goin’ to make sure
we stick you with this one.

01:03:36.680 --> 01:03:39.600
So go ahead and put your thumb
in your mouth now.

01:04:02.000 --> 01:04:05.280
We were talking about this
with my dad a little bit on the way

01:04:05.280 --> 01:04:10.400
home from work one night
and then he was a little bit skeptical,

01:04:11.320 --> 01:04:15.360
because it really presents
the idea of a police conspiracy.

01:04:15.840 --> 01:04:19.800
And we like to grow up
and think that the police officers

01:04:19.800 --> 01:04:24.640
are only here to protect us
and watch out for us and come to school

01:04:24.640 --> 01:04:30.600
and talk to the little kids and tell them
that the police are our friends.

01:04:30.600 --> 01:04:32.520
And the truth is not all of them are.

01:04:32.520 --> 01:04:35.520
And that\'s sort of an uncomfortable
reality to deal with.

01:04:39.160 --> 01:04:40.160
I’m Katy.

01:04:40.160 --> 01:04:41.040
Flint.

01:04:41.320 --> 01:04:44.720
Marcus, after he was released on this case,

01:04:44.720 --> 01:04:46.840
they brought a second case against him.

01:04:47.280 --> 01:04:51.040
And they used some of the same evidence
and some of the same witnesses

01:04:51.040 --> 01:04:55.920
and it was some of the same detectives
who had been involved in his original case.

01:04:57.000 --> 01:05:00.240
And who had been involved in his torture
and coercion.

01:05:00.520 --> 01:05:05.360
We know for a fact that the police
tried to set him up for two prior murders.

01:05:06.200 --> 01:05:09.960
And we know, we know that happened.
Did happen a third time?

01:05:11.000 --> 01:05:14.640
Maybe. We can\'t say for sure at this point.

01:05:15.320 --> 01:05:18.160
We know he was tortured when he was 13.

01:05:18.160 --> 01:05:20.760
We know that they tried to implicate him
in a murder

01:05:20.760 --> 01:05:23.760
that occurred after he was tortured
when he was 13 years of age.

01:05:23.960 --> 01:05:25.320
And he could not have committed
that murder

01:05:25.320 --> 01:05:29.240
because he had an ironclad alibi and
was living up in Wisconsin at the time.

01:05:29.800 --> 01:05:33.000
So there were members
of the police department

01:05:33.000 --> 01:05:35.040
we know who did not like Marcus Wiggins.

01:05:35.040 --> 01:05:40.120
Did not like what he stood for and
possibly, you know, were out to get him.

01:05:40.560 --> 01:05:43.280
Can we prove it in this case? Not yet.

01:05:43.280 --> 01:05:45.560
And, so that\'s where we\'re at.

01:05:45.560 --> 01:05:46.560
That\'s where we\'re at.

01:06:02.840 --> 01:06:06.240
I remember
the feeling of leaving the prison

01:06:06.760 --> 01:06:11.040
and feeling so horrible that Marcus

01:06:11.440 --> 01:06:14.440
was not able to leave.

01:06:14.760 --> 01:06:17.160
You know, I could walk out of the prison
and I remember

01:06:17.160 --> 01:06:20.160
the sky was very blue
and the sun was shining.

01:06:20.960 --> 01:06:23.880
And I felt very much
what it was like to be outdoors,

01:06:23.880 --> 01:06:26.960
while I knew that Marcus wasn\'t
having that

01:06:26.960 --> 01:06:29.280
same experience.

01:06:33.080 --> 01:06:35.200
And some students

01:06:35.200 --> 01:06:40.200
many times have a very difficult time
going back to their, shifting gears.

01:06:40.200 --> 01:06:42.560
You know, they work
here at the clinic and then,

01:06:42.560 --> 01:06:46.320
you know, they go home at night
and, you know, have their happy lives.

01:06:46.320 --> 01:06:49.440
And many of our students,
you know, many times find that

01:06:49.440 --> 01:06:52.720
very difficult to do when they know
they have a client who\'s in prison.

01:06:59.600 --> 01:07:01.400
Many times we have to counsel
students

01:07:01.800 --> 01:07:04.480
about those kind of feelings
and how it\'s really important

01:07:04.480 --> 01:07:06.720
as a lawyer,
you have to learn to separate.

01:07:06.720 --> 01:07:08.800
I mean, you know, it\'s only healthy.

01:07:08.800 --> 01:07:12.080
You know, you can\'t, you know,
because you\'re not going to be able to win

01:07:12.080 --> 01:07:13.000
every case.

01:07:13.000 --> 01:07:16.920
And you\'re not going to be able
to set your client free in a short

01:07:16.920 --> 01:07:18.400
period of time usually.

01:07:18.400 --> 01:07:22.400
We talked about how,
how he hated being in prison

01:07:22.400 --> 01:07:25.400
and how he wanted to be free,
be with his family.

01:07:26.400 --> 01:07:30.120
And that’s the thing about the
students of the school of law,

01:07:30.200 --> 01:07:33.760
if they know that you are innocent,
they\'re going to fight for you.

01:07:34.240 --> 01:07:36.000
But they\'ll tell you straight up,

01:07:36.000 --> 01:07:37.880
they ain’t gonna cut no corners
with you or anything.

01:07:37.880 --> 01:07:39.640
They’re gonna tell you straight up.

01:07:42.600 --> 01:07:43.880
I love them for that.

01:07:43.880 --> 01:07:46.520
I mean, I truly, I care about them.

01:07:47.880 --> 01:07:51.840
The bonds are deep here, because
we\'re doing something very special.

01:07:51.840 --> 01:07:54.840
We\'re representing people
who have been wrongfully convicted.

01:07:58.080 --> 01:07:59.400
We have a situation here

01:07:59.400 --> 01:08:03.600
where all the players
have told us themselves or told us

01:08:03.600 --> 01:08:07.120
through third parties that Marcus Wiggins
did not commit the crime.

01:08:07.480 --> 01:08:12.360
The only person we\'ve not talked to
or heard from is Cedric Farley.

01:08:12.440 --> 01:08:15.400
And he is the
you know, he was the one who gave,

01:08:15.400 --> 01:08:17.880
you know, key
testimony against Marcus Wiggins.

01:08:17.880 --> 01:08:22.040
And I just I don\'t know how we can unravel
this wrongful conviction

01:08:22.040 --> 01:08:25.560
without talking to him
and finding out what he has to say.

01:08:25.560 --> 01:08:26.880
I mean, it\'s key.

01:08:26.880 --> 01:08:28.800
-Cedric?
-Yes, it\'s key.

01:08:30.400 --> 01:08:31.480
-Katy!
-Hi.

01:08:32.000 --> 01:08:37.080
I guess this morning, Jennifer
did a search to find Cedric Farley again.

01:08:37.200 --> 01:08:37.680
Okay.

01:08:37.680 --> 01:08:41.640
And we\'re trying to find Cedric Farley
with a name spelled with a C.

01:08:42.680 --> 01:08:45.320
We want to run some searches.

01:08:45.320 --> 01:08:47.760
And so if it’s all right with you,

01:08:47.760 --> 01:08:49.360
Katy has the information.

01:08:50.760 --> 01:08:53.560
There are some Wisconsin addresses
and some Illinois addresses.

01:08:53.560 --> 01:08:54.840
Yeah, I\'ve got it.

01:09:01.840 --> 01:09:04.840
Nothing, seems a little...

01:09:06.320 --> 01:09:08.200
Cedric spelled with an “S”

01:09:08.200 --> 01:09:10.280
and changed it to Cedric
spelled with a “C”?

01:09:10.840 --> 01:09:13.560
Could be someone else changed it.
And let\'s see what\'s on the...

01:09:13.560 --> 01:09:16.560
Let\'s go back and look at

01:09:20.760 --> 01:09:23.040
We\'re going to see where he is
now. Oh, my gosh.

01:09:23.040 --> 01:09:24.600
That\'s the Wisconsin connection.

01:09:24.600 --> 01:09:26.200
That\'s him. Yeah, that\'s him.

01:09:26.200 --> 01:09:27.880
How come he didn’t come up before?

01:09:27.880 --> 01:09:29.840
I think we were looking “C-E”.

01:09:29.840 --> 01:09:32.080
We just went “S-E”.

01:09:32.360 --> 01:09:34.520
He was convicted of a homicide.

01:09:34.520 --> 01:09:35.520
He’s in prison.

01:09:35.520 --> 01:09:36.880
We know where he is.

01:09:36.880 --> 01:09:39.120
Oh my gosh. So here you go.

01:09:39.120 --> 01:09:42.520
We\'ve got to find out
how we get in to see him.

01:09:42.880 --> 01:09:46.680
Call that correctional institution
and find out what their rules are,

01:09:46.680 --> 01:09:49.680
what the rules are. And.

01:09:49.840 --> 01:09:52.960
And then we just go, we don\'t
write him a letter, we just go.

01:09:53.720 --> 01:09:56.200
I went back to the states’
discovery

01:09:56.200 --> 01:09:57.840
and look what I found.

01:09:59.240 --> 01:10:00.440
Oh no!

01:10:00.440 --> 01:10:03.160
I think we’re going to try to go to
prison this week.

01:10:05.640 --> 01:10:06.880
All right.

01:10:06.880 --> 01:10:08.000
All right.

01:10:14.240 --> 01:10:16.920
We\'re not too terribly late.

01:10:16.920 --> 01:10:18.680
I’d just drive up and we’ll jump out.

01:10:18.680 --> 01:10:19.720
Just get your I.D.

01:10:19.720 --> 01:10:22.680
and don\'t bring anything else.

01:10:22.680 --> 01:10:24.120
I can bring my papers.

01:10:24.120 --> 01:10:27.400
Oh, bring papers,
but don\'t bring money or anything.

01:10:32.240 --> 01:10:33.040
I pray

01:10:33.040 --> 01:10:36.040
that this interview with Sedrick
Farley goes well.

01:10:36.800 --> 01:10:38.640
Marcus deserves the biggest break.

01:10:38.640 --> 01:10:44.160
And like I\'ve said, this is the biggest
break in the case that we\'ve had.

01:10:45.040 --> 01:10:46.920
So fingers crossed.

01:10:48.440 --> 01:10:50.560
What did he tell you that was good?

01:10:52.000 --> 01:10:55.800
Well, he told me the police
did Marcus wrong.

01:10:56.040 --> 01:10:57.560
-They did wrong.
-Right.

01:10:57.560 --> 01:10:58.800
I think he said that to you.

01:10:58.800 --> 01:11:00.600
He did explain it.

01:11:00.600 --> 01:11:03.000
So I kept asking him what
he meant by that.

01:11:04.800 --> 01:11:06.840
Hello?

01:11:06.840 --> 01:11:09.600
-Hello.
-Hello.

01:11:09.600 --> 01:11:11.320
I lost them.

01:11:12.960 --> 01:11:15.960
So how\'s it going so far?

01:11:19.920 --> 01:11:20.640
Cynthia?

01:11:20.640 --> 01:11:21.840
Yeah, it might be...

01:11:21.840 --> 01:11:25.400
It might be we\'ll have to continue this
at the office tomorrow or something.

01:11:25.400 --> 01:11:26.520
Okay.

01:11:26.520 --> 01:11:28.120
You\'re hitting dead zones.

01:11:28.120 --> 01:11:30.560
Yeah, but he doesn\'t know shot...

01:11:31.120 --> 01:11:34.560
Theopolis. He did not see who
shot Theopolis.

01:11:35.160 --> 01:11:38.520
He said me
and it was very hard to hear him.

01:11:38.960 --> 01:11:42.560
But he said to me,
the police did Marcus wrong.

01:11:43.280 --> 01:11:45.120
They did him wrong.

01:11:45.120 --> 01:11:47.440
He said that the police did Marcus wrong.

01:11:47.440 --> 01:11:48.640
-Yeah.
-That\'s interesting.

01:11:48.640 --> 01:11:52.440
They said, oh it was
that fucking ID was all fucked up

01:11:52.800 --> 01:11:56.480
when they were going to do the lineup,
they had him sitting at a desk

01:11:56.920 --> 01:12:00.520
and they showed him a picture of Marcus
Wiggins before the lineup.

01:12:01.320 --> 01:12:03.920
They showed him a picture of Marcus
Wiggins before the lineup.

01:12:03.920 --> 01:12:05.520
Yeah, well that\'s huge.

01:12:05.520 --> 01:12:06.320
It\'s huge.

01:12:06.320 --> 01:12:07.840
And he was telling the boss

01:12:07.840 --> 01:12:11.160
that was all, that was bad,
and they shouldn\'t have done that.

01:12:11.440 --> 01:12:14.080
And I knew it at the time
and they should not...

01:12:14.080 --> 01:12:16.720
And I guess it actually
had his name on the picture.

01:12:18.120 --> 01:12:20.840
And they show that picture to him
before he views the lineup.

01:12:20.840 --> 01:12:21.840
Yeah.

01:12:21.840 --> 01:12:22.960
Hello?

01:12:26.160 --> 01:12:27.920
That was Jane.

01:12:29.200 --> 01:12:32.200
Sedgwick Farley was the last witness
we\'d been looking for.

01:12:32.640 --> 01:12:35.760
He clearly confirmed
that the police wanted Marcus in prison.

01:12:36.240 --> 01:12:38.760
They wanted him in prison as a revenge
for revealing

01:12:38.760 --> 01:12:41.760
the misdeeds of their colleagues
when he was 13.

01:12:42.320 --> 01:12:45.440
They put witnesses under pressure
to point the finger on Marcus

01:12:45.440 --> 01:12:48.000
as a retaliation for John Burge.

01:12:53.160 --> 01:12:54.200
A high profile trial

01:12:54.200 --> 01:12:57.320
at the Dirksen Federal Building
is moving into a new phase today.

01:12:57.320 --> 01:13:00.640
I feel like anything that
will bring John Burge

01:13:00.640 --> 01:13:03.640
into the public eye
and under scrutiny, like a trial

01:13:04.200 --> 01:13:07.920
such as this, is great for Marcus
because it just makes his case

01:13:07.920 --> 01:13:10.560
that much more, sort of relevant

01:13:10.560 --> 01:13:14.760
and pressing for the media and the city.

01:13:18.000 --> 01:13:20.400
John Burge was seen arriving for court today,

01:13:20.640 --> 01:13:23.800
but once the verdict was read,
he was taken out of the Dirksen

01:13:23.800 --> 01:13:26.800
Federal Building, away from public view.

01:13:27.120 --> 01:13:30.840
John Burge is found guilty of lying
about the torture of suspects.

01:13:32.000 --> 01:13:35.000
Burge now faces up to 45 years in prison.

01:13:35.520 --> 01:13:38.840
Former police commander
John Burge broke the law.

01:13:38.960 --> 01:13:40.920
when he was supposed to uphold it.

01:13:42.320 --> 01:13:43.200
When you look

01:13:43.200 --> 01:13:47.000
at everything we\'ve collected
and you start connecting the dots,

01:13:47.520 --> 01:13:51.120
you see that
this case begins with police torture

01:13:51.920 --> 01:13:55.920
and it ends with police intimidation
and police retaliation.

01:13:56.640 --> 01:14:00.560
And the same detectives who were involved
in the torture of Marcus Wiggins

01:14:00.560 --> 01:14:04.920
were involved with taking statements
from witnesses who now claim

01:14:05.720 --> 01:14:09.000
that they were forced
to tell a lie at trial.

01:14:09.480 --> 01:14:12.480
And so I think at the end of the day
we have got

01:14:12.560 --> 01:14:16.120
what we might call a Burge claim.

01:14:17.440 --> 01:14:19.800
When you look at all that we have done,

01:14:19.800 --> 01:14:24.120
at the end of the day, there\'s
not one witness, not one piece of paper

01:14:24.120 --> 01:14:28.440
that is inconsistent with Marcus Wiggins’
claim of actual innocence.

01:14:28.720 --> 01:14:31.080
We still have some tasks left to do.

01:14:31.080 --> 01:14:33.640
And today
we\'ll make a list of what they are

01:14:33.640 --> 01:14:37.080
and, you know, decide
who\'s going to complete those tasks.

01:14:37.080 --> 01:14:41.200
But I think
now the time has come to put pen to paper.

01:14:41.840 --> 01:14:44.760
And I think now the time has come

01:14:44.760 --> 01:14:50.280
to explain to our listener, to the court
why Marcus’ case should be heard,

01:14:50.520 --> 01:14:53.760
why he\'s innocent
and why he deserves a new trial.

01:15:05.280 --> 01:15:08.280
We\'re all driving to Pickneyville,

01:15:08.320 --> 01:15:09.680
I think I’m pronouncing that right,

01:15:09.680 --> 01:15:10.880
to visit Marcus.

01:15:13.360 --> 01:15:15.120
Well, first, as I expected,

01:15:15.120 --> 01:15:19.680
he\'ll be pretty excited to hear
that we\'re starting to write the petition.

01:15:19.800 --> 01:15:24.400
It\'s been two years
now of gathering evidence

01:15:24.400 --> 01:15:27.480
and investigating, talking to witnesses.

01:15:28.360 --> 01:15:32.080
So I think that he\'ll be happy to know
that things coming are along.

01:15:34.440 --> 01:15:36.360
How are you?

01:15:36.920 --> 01:15:39.920
It\'s going to feel so good just

01:15:40.760 --> 01:15:42.640
to get outside that door.

01:15:42.640 --> 01:15:45.640
You know, it\'s going to feel so good.

01:15:45.920 --> 01:15:48.800
I’m gonna spend a lot of
time with my kids and

01:15:48.800 --> 01:15:51.800
and really pay attention to them,
listen to what they got to say.

01:15:52.480 --> 01:15:56.320
And I’ll take it from there.

01:15:57.400 --> 01:15:58.440
it\'s going to be good.

01:15:58.440 --> 01:15:59.960
It\'s going to be a good thing.

01:16:06.040 --> 01:16:08.240
Thank you, Marcus. For...

01:16:09.320 --> 01:16:12.560
letting me into my life in this way, and

01:16:13.920 --> 01:16:15.360
you\'ve changed my life.

01:16:15.360 --> 01:16:18.360
So I hope that

01:16:18.760 --> 01:16:20.400
some of the work
that I\'ve done on this case

01:16:20.400 --> 01:16:21.840
will end up changing yours.

01:16:25.600 --> 01:16:27.120
After meeting Marcus and learning

01:16:27.120 --> 01:16:30.120
so much about him, it\'s
not like he just disappears from my life.

01:16:30.880 --> 01:16:34.160
Like it\'s
something that I\'ll remember forever

01:16:34.160 --> 01:16:37.360
and will affect
my life probably forever.

01:16:38.320 --> 01:16:39.280
It\'s definitely not something

01:16:39.280 --> 01:16:41.000
that I can just forget about.

01:16:47.120 --> 01:16:50.000
I wish I could see
Marcus walk free from prison.

01:16:50.000 --> 01:16:53.680
But after all this,
I understand that it takes a lot more time

01:16:53.680 --> 01:16:56.680
than any of us would have expected.

01:17:12.440 --> 01:17:15.440
It\'s so easy to get really cynical about

01:17:15.600 --> 01:17:19.560
not only the legal system,
but just the world general,

01:17:19.560 --> 01:17:23.640
when you\'re doing well, learning about
this kind of thing, because so many awful

01:17:23.640 --> 01:17:26.640
things have happened to these,
to the people we\'ve met

01:17:27.480 --> 01:17:30.480
and it\'s hard to

01:17:31.360 --> 01:17:32.360
see the positive side.

01:17:32.360 --> 01:17:35.520
But I think the positive side is
that there are so many people who care

01:17:35.520 --> 01:17:40.880
and who are doing whatever they can
to stop this kind of thing

01:17:40.880 --> 01:17:42.160
from happening.

01:17:58.400 --> 01:18:00.240
There’s a lot I have to say,
but I’m not gonna take up your time

01:18:00.240 --> 01:18:01.920
But the bottom line is

01:18:01.920 --> 01:18:05.400
we’re thankful for the people that believe
in us and all these years.

01:18:06.400 --> 01:18:09.840
All the people that stood by my side
all those years

01:18:10.280 --> 01:18:14.120
and I love what I see here today,
people from all walks of life

01:18:14.400 --> 01:18:17.440
coming together to see that
truth has a voice.

01:18:18.840 --> 01:18:20.880
I\'m very grateful to be here.

01:18:20.880 --> 01:18:24.840
And God willing, we\'ll continue the fight
for those who are still languishing

01:18:24.840 --> 01:18:26.600
in prison. God bless us all.