00:00:09.500 --> 00:00:11.958
[MUSIC PLAYING]

00:00:23.297 --> 00:00:28.170
Oh, the treaty was
made in Fort Bridger.

00:00:28.170 --> 00:00:31.620
Our people went over
and camped and talked

00:00:31.620 --> 00:00:36.340
about where they going to
pick their reservation.

00:00:36.340 --> 00:00:40.650
So they talked about
it, and smoked a pipe

00:00:40.650 --> 00:00:42.220
and talked about it.

00:00:44.760 --> 00:00:50.180
And may-- well, this is--

00:00:53.470 --> 00:00:56.230
it's too windy up there
where they were struggling

00:00:56.230 --> 00:00:58.910
around Pioneer, you know.

00:00:58.910 --> 00:01:03.070
And then they all come around
that way around Jackson Hole

00:01:03.070 --> 00:01:07.000
and through there and they
say, oh, too much snow

00:01:07.000 --> 00:01:08.070
will be there.

00:01:08.070 --> 00:01:11.010
Well, how about the
place where we always

00:01:11.010 --> 00:01:14.940
camp with a lot of game there.

00:01:14.940 --> 00:01:16.882
Lot of game.

00:01:16.882 --> 00:01:19.040
Fish.

00:01:19.040 --> 00:01:23.430
Why can't we go there?

00:01:26.700 --> 00:01:30.920
Well, that's a place, they
called it Warm Valley.

00:01:30.920 --> 00:01:32.627
There was no states then.

00:01:32.627 --> 00:01:34.750
[MUSIC PLAYING]

00:01:35.250 --> 00:01:37.138
There was no states.

00:01:37.138 --> 00:01:39.583
[MUSIC PLAYING]

00:01:50.205 --> 00:01:51.080
Good place to winter.

00:01:51.080 --> 00:01:54.250
This a beautiful
place to winter.

00:01:54.250 --> 00:01:57.470
Even Chief [? Watsky ?]
recognized this

00:01:57.470 --> 00:01:58.420
before the treaty.

00:01:58.420 --> 00:02:00.506
He wanted this area.

00:02:00.506 --> 00:02:03.720
He-- this is the area that he
wanted the Wind River Valley

00:02:03.720 --> 00:02:06.380
because on account
the mild winters.

00:02:06.380 --> 00:02:09.440
And ranchers have
picked up on that too.

00:02:12.970 --> 00:02:15.651
If a person is in
agriculture, the water

00:02:15.651 --> 00:02:16.900
is basically their livelihood.

00:02:16.900 --> 00:02:18.691
Because, in this country,
without the water

00:02:18.691 --> 00:02:20.356
you could raise
absolutely nothing.

00:02:20.356 --> 00:02:22.846
[MUSIC PLAYING]

00:02:25.336 --> 00:02:27.826
[WATER FLOWING]

00:02:29.818 --> 00:02:32.308
[MUSIC PLAYING]

00:02:37.790 --> 00:02:40.277
To my culture, it's
real important.

00:02:43.020 --> 00:02:54.320
We use it and pray for it
and use it in a good way.

00:02:54.320 --> 00:02:58.147
Water, yeah, well, it's
pure and simple to me.

00:02:58.147 --> 00:02:59.110
[MUSIC PLAYING]

00:02:59.610 --> 00:03:02.840
We developed the arid
lands of the West

00:03:02.840 --> 00:03:07.970
for the people of the nation
to produce different people,

00:03:07.970 --> 00:03:09.381
to create recreation.

00:03:09.381 --> 00:03:10.704
[MUSIC PLAYING]

00:03:11.590 --> 00:03:14.510
That's justifiable in
my way of thinking.

00:03:14.510 --> 00:03:16.965
I think it should take
precedence over the fisheries.

00:03:16.965 --> 00:03:19.390
[MUSIC PLAYING]

00:03:22.300 --> 00:03:25.829
Water in the West, as the
old cattle baron surely

00:03:25.829 --> 00:03:27.370
knew and as anybody
else who noticed,

00:03:27.370 --> 00:03:29.744
the key to everything-- that
you could have lots of land,

00:03:29.744 --> 00:03:32.770
but if you don't have
water, you haven't got much.

00:03:32.770 --> 00:03:36.484
Fighting over land, that's
important, consequential,

00:03:36.484 --> 00:03:38.900
but it's-- the fight's over
water that really are about 10

00:03:38.900 --> 00:03:41.107
or 20 times more consequential.

00:03:41.107 --> 00:03:43.592
[MUSIC PLAYING]

00:04:08.970 --> 00:04:11.840
In here on reservation, we've
been involved with the water

00:04:11.840 --> 00:04:15.170
rights issues since,
well, for 20 years now,

00:04:15.170 --> 00:04:18.820
if you can believe
that, since 1977.

00:04:18.820 --> 00:04:22.105
And the state of
Wyoming at that time

00:04:22.105 --> 00:04:24.950
was claiming all the waters
within the boundaries

00:04:24.950 --> 00:04:25.550
of the state.

00:04:25.550 --> 00:04:29.524
They wanted to adjudicate,
finally and forever,

00:04:29.524 --> 00:04:31.940
what water rights the Shoshone
and the Arapaho tribes were

00:04:31.940 --> 00:04:34.670
entitled to and what
water rights the state

00:04:34.670 --> 00:04:37.460
was entitled to in
the Wind River basin.

00:04:37.460 --> 00:04:41.861
And from then on
everything deteriorated.

00:04:41.861 --> 00:04:44.015
They caused hard feelings
amongst neighbors.

00:04:44.015 --> 00:04:46.010
They caused hard feelings
between the state

00:04:46.010 --> 00:04:48.210
and the tribes.

00:04:48.210 --> 00:04:50.880
And it has never
been settled yet.

00:04:50.880 --> 00:04:52.650
When I bought my
farm on this project,

00:04:52.650 --> 00:04:55.830
I was a young fellow
and full of energy.

00:04:55.830 --> 00:04:57.990
If I would have known
how the Indians felt

00:04:57.990 --> 00:05:00.030
about us farming
on the reservation,

00:05:00.030 --> 00:05:01.770
I would have never
consider that--

00:05:01.770 --> 00:05:02.970
investing in this country.

00:05:02.970 --> 00:05:06.930
But I've got a lifetime
invested in this project.

00:05:10.480 --> 00:05:13.140
Before this land was opened
up, it was all Indian land.

00:05:13.140 --> 00:05:15.696
This was opened up
for homesteading.

00:05:15.696 --> 00:05:17.510
And when it was opened
up for homesteading,

00:05:17.510 --> 00:05:20.430
basically the government took
it and let homesteaders come in

00:05:20.430 --> 00:05:22.420
on it.

00:05:22.420 --> 00:05:29.180
And now the government has
committed themselves to us.

00:05:29.180 --> 00:05:31.930
And the tribes feel like
they've been cheated.

00:05:31.930 --> 00:05:34.120
Probably, part of the
thing was the government's

00:05:34.120 --> 00:05:36.190
ruined quite a few
of the Indians,

00:05:36.190 --> 00:05:38.800
because they've had a
lot of handouts for them

00:05:38.800 --> 00:05:41.126
to where other people
can't get a hold of.

00:05:41.126 --> 00:05:43.606
[MUSIC PLAYING]

00:06:10.400 --> 00:06:13.690
We are the managing agency
for the Bureau of Reclamation.

00:06:13.690 --> 00:06:16.521
Problem is farmers themselves
can't do big projects.

00:06:16.521 --> 00:06:18.520
That's the reason that
the Bureau of Reclamation

00:06:18.520 --> 00:06:20.225
was set up in the first place.

00:06:20.225 --> 00:06:23.530
The individuals can't
handle these massive jobs,

00:06:23.530 --> 00:06:26.370
but the government can, OK?

00:06:26.370 --> 00:06:28.360
If it's a benefit to
the people, OK, it's

00:06:28.360 --> 00:06:31.235
a good way for the government
to spend you and our money.

00:06:31.235 --> 00:06:34.430
Well, the Bureau of
Reclamation was originally

00:06:34.430 --> 00:06:36.160
of the Reclamation Service.

00:06:36.160 --> 00:06:40.440
And it was established in the
federal government in 1902.

00:06:40.440 --> 00:06:42.850
Before that John Wesley
Powell, the explorer

00:06:42.850 --> 00:06:45.690
of the Colorado River,
had been promoting

00:06:45.690 --> 00:06:47.010
irrigation in the West.

00:06:47.010 --> 00:06:48.720
But it was he who
really began to collect

00:06:48.720 --> 00:06:53.460
a group of spirited young guys,
who wanted to go out and help

00:06:53.460 --> 00:06:57.840
turn the desert into an
agricultural homelands

00:06:57.840 --> 00:07:01.890
for Eastern people, who lacked
farmlands, who wanted homes,

00:07:01.890 --> 00:07:06.250
wanted to come out and carry
on the old American tradition.

00:07:06.250 --> 00:07:08.730
And the way the
Reclamation Service

00:07:08.730 --> 00:07:10.580
carried that spirit
at the beginning--

00:07:10.580 --> 00:07:12.130
and it became a formula.

00:07:12.130 --> 00:07:15.090
You build a dam
as the foundation

00:07:15.090 --> 00:07:17.530
for economic development
and the purpose

00:07:17.530 --> 00:07:20.660
finally becomes
total control for--

00:07:20.660 --> 00:07:22.530
this is a slogan
the Bureau uses--

00:07:22.530 --> 00:07:24.870
"total control for
greater wealth."

00:07:24.870 --> 00:07:28.290
We will manage every
river in the West

00:07:28.290 --> 00:07:33.830
from headwaters to the mouth
in massive irrigation projects.

00:07:33.830 --> 00:07:36.010
Who's entitled to the water?

00:07:36.010 --> 00:07:37.730
The project was here,
it was in place,

00:07:37.730 --> 00:07:39.380
it demands so much water.

00:07:39.380 --> 00:07:41.527
I honestly, truly believe
that this-- the water

00:07:41.527 --> 00:07:43.360
is in the state of
Wyoming, why shouldn't it

00:07:43.360 --> 00:07:45.160
be the state's water?

00:07:45.160 --> 00:07:48.040
Obviously, the tribes have been
here long before the state.

00:07:48.040 --> 00:07:51.670
And there's been tribal
operating governments

00:07:51.670 --> 00:07:54.370
long before the state of
Wyoming came into existence

00:07:54.370 --> 00:07:55.090
as a government.

00:07:55.090 --> 00:07:57.430
And much of the-- much of
federal Indian law comes from

00:07:57.430 --> 00:07:59.680
those-- from the original
treaties and the recognition

00:07:59.680 --> 00:08:02.290
of sovereignty
between the tribes--

00:08:02.290 --> 00:08:05.130
various tribes and the
United States government.

00:08:05.130 --> 00:08:09.710
And according to the
Constitution, Wyoming,

00:08:09.710 --> 00:08:15.260
which came in after
the 1868 treaty,

00:08:15.260 --> 00:08:17.025
they claim all the
water in the state.

00:08:17.025 --> 00:08:20.780
Well, how can you come in
after somebody else is already

00:08:20.780 --> 00:08:27.885
in place and by Treaty of
1868 and then come in 1890

00:08:27.885 --> 00:08:31.180
and say you claim all the
water or you own all the water?

00:08:31.180 --> 00:08:33.160
This process is so
much easier if you

00:08:33.160 --> 00:08:36.010
have a cultural
understanding that tells you

00:08:36.010 --> 00:08:39.142
that the other party really
does not substantively exist.

00:08:39.142 --> 00:08:41.350
So as you converge on the
resource, if you don't even

00:08:41.350 --> 00:08:43.309
notice that you're
converging or if you

00:08:43.309 --> 00:08:49.850
are so certain of your own
legitimacy and the marginality,

00:08:49.850 --> 00:08:51.700
the peripheralness
of the other guy,

00:08:51.700 --> 00:08:53.500
that really makes the
process a lot easier.

00:08:53.500 --> 00:08:58.390
Prior Appropriation Doctrine
is the adage is first in time,

00:08:58.390 --> 00:09:00.820
first in right.

00:09:00.820 --> 00:09:04.000
Wyoming adopted that
principle at statehood

00:09:04.000 --> 00:09:06.160
under our constitution.

00:09:06.160 --> 00:09:07.990
Every use of water in
the state of Wyoming

00:09:07.990 --> 00:09:10.180
requires of water right.

00:09:10.180 --> 00:09:13.900
You can't build a reservoir,
towns can't use water,

00:09:13.900 --> 00:09:16.870
can't irrigate land without
first having a water right.

00:09:16.870 --> 00:09:18.340
The only way you
do that in Wyoming

00:09:18.340 --> 00:09:22.230
is to first come to the State
Engineer's Office, the agency

00:09:22.230 --> 00:09:23.420
that I'm the head of.

00:09:23.420 --> 00:09:26.510
And my agency is the one
who reviews and approves

00:09:26.510 --> 00:09:28.240
water rights.

00:09:28.240 --> 00:09:30.370
Once you have your water
right then you're--

00:09:30.370 --> 00:09:32.780
that entitles you to go
out and develop your dam,

00:09:32.780 --> 00:09:35.440
or irrigate your land or
whatever it is you want to do.

00:09:35.440 --> 00:09:37.420
And the value of
that system obviously

00:09:37.420 --> 00:09:41.890
is as long as there is plenty
of water in the stream system,

00:09:41.890 --> 00:09:47.500
to satisfy all the
water rights, then

00:09:47.500 --> 00:09:50.790
everyone gets to use the
benefit of their water right.

00:09:50.790 --> 00:09:53.440
But as the stream flow
drops in the late summer,

00:09:53.440 --> 00:09:56.200
the Appropriation
Doctrine system

00:09:56.200 --> 00:10:00.460
guarantees that the first water
users, the first people who

00:10:00.460 --> 00:10:04.570
appropriated water, continue
to get their amount of water

00:10:04.570 --> 00:10:05.860
first.

00:10:05.860 --> 00:10:07.570
And if there is still
water left over,

00:10:07.570 --> 00:10:10.030
then the guy who has
the second appropriation

00:10:10.030 --> 00:10:11.590
gets his amount of water--

00:10:11.590 --> 00:10:14.560
second and so on down
the line until the water

00:10:14.560 --> 00:10:19.630
is all been used.

00:10:19.630 --> 00:10:24.720
Western water law discourages
conservation and efficient use

00:10:24.720 --> 00:10:25.220
of water.

00:10:25.220 --> 00:10:27.860
Use it or lose it.

00:10:27.860 --> 00:10:29.860
So you've got these
non-Indians out there

00:10:29.860 --> 00:10:31.460
taking as much as they can.

00:10:31.460 --> 00:10:34.130
And they're destroying
land, they're

00:10:34.130 --> 00:10:36.250
destroying water
quality, they're

00:10:36.250 --> 00:10:39.280
altering the hydrologic
cycle of our areas

00:10:39.280 --> 00:10:41.300
and they're mismanaging water.

00:10:41.300 --> 00:10:43.570
We're wasting water every day.

00:10:43.570 --> 00:10:45.640
A lot of people,
again, depending

00:10:45.640 --> 00:10:47.900
on who you're talking
to, will tell you

00:10:47.900 --> 00:10:52.020
that Wyoming law allows
irrigators to just run amok,

00:10:52.020 --> 00:10:54.370
to divert the streams dry
and take as much water

00:10:54.370 --> 00:10:56.300
as they want.

00:10:56.300 --> 00:11:03.610
Again, those-- that
theory or that concept

00:11:03.610 --> 00:11:05.800
demonstrates a lack
of understanding

00:11:05.800 --> 00:11:08.500
of the way the law works.

00:11:08.500 --> 00:11:10.550
It's not uncommon for--

00:11:10.550 --> 00:11:14.500
on any given day during the
months of July and August

00:11:14.500 --> 00:11:20.860
and into early September and
see 90% to 95%, as high as 98%,

00:11:20.860 --> 00:11:22.820
of the total water
being dewatered

00:11:22.820 --> 00:11:24.481
in that stretch of river.

00:11:24.481 --> 00:11:26.230
And there's been times
when we've been out

00:11:26.230 --> 00:11:27.550
there and documented it--

00:11:27.550 --> 00:11:32.320
that-- and the river
has been completely dry.

00:11:32.320 --> 00:11:36.850
And in the lower Wind
River, even prior

00:11:36.850 --> 00:11:44.100
to getting to Riverton Valley,
fish that, during those months,

00:11:44.100 --> 00:11:47.060
ripples become
barriers and pools

00:11:47.060 --> 00:11:50.240
become death traps
to a lot of fish.

00:11:50.240 --> 00:11:53.450
Well, we got fish that are
completely eliminated in much

00:11:53.450 --> 00:11:54.851
of the lower Wind River.

00:11:54.851 --> 00:11:56.600
There's minnow species
that are completely

00:11:56.600 --> 00:12:00.810
eliminated from the system
in that lower stretch.

00:12:00.810 --> 00:12:03.470
Well, now, that area I grew
up in and because of all

00:12:03.470 --> 00:12:06.850
the dewatering, and
chemicals, and fertilizers,

00:12:06.850 --> 00:12:08.266
and pesticides and
everything else

00:12:08.266 --> 00:12:10.886
that comes into that
river, the big Wind River

00:12:10.886 --> 00:12:13.110
below the Diversion
Dam is a dying river.

00:12:13.110 --> 00:12:14.760
It's your right to divert.

00:12:14.760 --> 00:12:17.150
That's what the state looks
like-- looks at it like.

00:12:17.150 --> 00:12:18.670
And to me, it just makes sense--

00:12:18.670 --> 00:12:21.459
your right to divert
this much water.

00:12:21.459 --> 00:12:23.000
Are you putting it
to beneficial use?

00:12:23.000 --> 00:12:25.790
Well, what's beneficial use?

00:12:25.790 --> 00:12:28.700
Agriculture, livestock,
and domestic.

00:12:28.700 --> 00:12:30.590
What other use could--

00:12:30.590 --> 00:12:32.920
what would be unbeneficial?

00:12:32.920 --> 00:12:34.460
There's a lot more
beneficial uses

00:12:34.460 --> 00:12:37.760
of water than just irrigation.

00:12:37.760 --> 00:12:39.530
How can it just
be for irrigation?

00:12:39.530 --> 00:12:41.780
And there's a heck
of a lot more people

00:12:41.780 --> 00:12:46.520
that are interested in water,
not only for irrigation,

00:12:46.520 --> 00:12:48.410
but for all the other uses.

00:12:48.410 --> 00:12:50.120
And why wouldn't
you want to do that?

00:12:50.120 --> 00:12:53.600
I think if there was any
one single thing that

00:12:53.600 --> 00:12:58.520
just accentuated the
total injustice associated

00:12:58.520 --> 00:13:04.200
with the system and the way
the tribes have been treated,

00:13:04.200 --> 00:13:05.560
it's Diversion Dam.

00:13:05.560 --> 00:13:07.880
It's a [INAUDIBLE]
dam that was built

00:13:07.880 --> 00:13:13.350
by the Bureau of
Reclamation of 1934,

00:13:13.350 --> 00:13:19.010
which extends the entire
width of the river, that

00:13:19.010 --> 00:13:21.950
prevents fish movements
and migration upstream

00:13:21.950 --> 00:13:23.120
and downstream.

00:13:23.120 --> 00:13:27.740
As soon as that
Diversion Dam was built,

00:13:27.740 --> 00:13:29.510
large amounts of
sediment started

00:13:29.510 --> 00:13:33.650
building up behind the dam.

00:13:33.650 --> 00:13:35.900
And it became the practice
of the day, I guess,

00:13:35.900 --> 00:13:38.360
to just open up the dam
every once in awhile

00:13:38.360 --> 00:13:41.060
and flush those
sediments downstream.

00:13:41.060 --> 00:13:43.820
And that's been
going on for decades.

00:13:43.820 --> 00:13:47.390
The irrigators can take
out the clean water

00:13:47.390 --> 00:13:51.950
that has flown in the system
until the sediment builds up

00:13:51.950 --> 00:13:55.130
to a point where it's starting
to leach into the irrigation

00:13:55.130 --> 00:13:56.120
ditch.

00:13:56.120 --> 00:13:59.586
And then they dump the sediment
on the Indian Reservation

00:13:59.586 --> 00:14:00.710
and take their clean water.

00:14:13.750 --> 00:14:16.260
Imagine if the fish
had already spawned,

00:14:16.260 --> 00:14:20.190
and they spawn and find gravels,
and they deposit their eggs

00:14:20.190 --> 00:14:22.680
in four to six inches
of gravel, well,

00:14:22.680 --> 00:14:26.184
imagine them doing that
right after a sluice.

00:14:26.184 --> 00:14:28.350
What kind of survival you
think's going to happened?

00:14:28.350 --> 00:14:30.780
It's having a very major
impact down the entire length

00:14:30.780 --> 00:14:32.440
of the river.

00:14:32.440 --> 00:14:37.210
And people living in Riverton,
40, 50 years ago or more,

00:14:37.210 --> 00:14:41.570
would routinely fish in the
river and catch a variety

00:14:41.570 --> 00:14:42.820
of fish that they don't--

00:14:42.820 --> 00:14:44.170
they're just not there now.

00:14:44.170 --> 00:14:46.080
There's been a
concern about the silt

00:14:46.080 --> 00:14:49.130
in the river for
quite a few years.

00:14:49.130 --> 00:14:52.660
US Fish and Wildlife have
complained about it constantly.

00:14:52.660 --> 00:14:55.540
People would like to--

00:14:55.540 --> 00:14:58.390
they don't understand
water hydraulics is--

00:14:58.390 --> 00:15:01.360
and that's where these--
this bad PR comes from.

00:15:01.360 --> 00:15:03.100
You-- it's just
something that you

00:15:03.100 --> 00:15:05.650
have to do if you're
going to divert water.

00:15:05.650 --> 00:15:08.110
Here you have a river
that could be scenic,

00:15:08.110 --> 00:15:10.780
it could be fishable,
it could be floatable,

00:15:10.780 --> 00:15:14.230
it could have all the attributes
that all major rivers have,

00:15:14.230 --> 00:15:15.676
and this one doesn't have it.

00:15:15.676 --> 00:15:18.156
[MUSIC PLAYING]

00:15:47.950 --> 00:15:51.400
I believe this, that the tribes
could manage water better

00:15:51.400 --> 00:15:55.540
than the state engineer
on this reservation.

00:15:55.540 --> 00:15:59.770
For Indian people our
sovereignty, our religion,

00:15:59.770 --> 00:16:06.190
our culture, our way of life,
our ceremonies, our beliefs,

00:16:06.190 --> 00:16:07.330
it all ties in.

00:16:07.330 --> 00:16:09.040
It all ties in together.

00:16:09.040 --> 00:16:13.060
Our beliefs and our cultural
and traditional attachment

00:16:13.060 --> 00:16:15.760
with water is what sets
our federal Indian reserve

00:16:15.760 --> 00:16:19.110
water rights apart from a
regular state appropriated

00:16:19.110 --> 00:16:20.020
water right.

00:16:20.020 --> 00:16:27.400
The Indian water right is a
species of a reserved water

00:16:27.400 --> 00:16:33.560
right, i.e., the
federal government can,

00:16:33.560 --> 00:16:38.000
with respect to any federal
lands, National Forest,

00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:39.170
what have you--

00:16:39.170 --> 00:16:40.730
they can claim
they have reserved

00:16:40.730 --> 00:16:44.090
a water right that is
consistent with the reservation

00:16:44.090 --> 00:16:46.010
of the land.

00:16:46.010 --> 00:16:48.740
The tribes were looking
to avail themselves

00:16:48.740 --> 00:16:52.850
of this other legal doctrine,
because that would allow them

00:16:52.850 --> 00:16:55.640
to improve the priority date.

00:16:55.640 --> 00:16:59.240
That would allow them to
quantify and establish

00:16:59.240 --> 00:17:04.550
water rights, which would carry
the date of the reservation.

00:17:04.550 --> 00:17:07.610
1977, the general
adjudication got started.

00:17:07.610 --> 00:17:10.730
We went through
years of litigation,

00:17:10.730 --> 00:17:15.560
ultimately resulting in
a 1985 decision, which

00:17:15.560 --> 00:17:19.190
is where the state
courts in Wyoming

00:17:19.190 --> 00:17:21.710
did award reserved water
rights to the Wind River Indian

00:17:21.710 --> 00:17:22.579
Reservation.

00:17:22.579 --> 00:17:26.569
If you talk to other water
users in the basin, who

00:17:26.569 --> 00:17:29.420
thought they had good water
rights with a 1900 priority

00:17:29.420 --> 00:17:32.780
date, they now find
themselves instead of equal

00:17:32.780 --> 00:17:35.450
or maybe even a head of
some of these projects

00:17:35.450 --> 00:17:37.830
on the reservation,
they're now 40 years later

00:17:37.830 --> 00:17:39.800
than the reservation.

00:17:39.800 --> 00:17:41.900
There was a lot of
alarm, a lot of concern

00:17:41.900 --> 00:17:44.730
that maybe somebody was
going to shoot somebody.

00:17:44.730 --> 00:17:47.217
That-- you heard the
thing of if somebody--

00:17:47.217 --> 00:17:49.602
if the tribes come out
to turn off my head gate,

00:17:49.602 --> 00:17:50.560
they're going to have--

00:17:50.560 --> 00:17:53.060
they're going to meet
me with my rifle.

00:17:53.060 --> 00:17:57.400
And basically it wasn't a good
feeling for the water users.

00:17:57.400 --> 00:18:00.307
They seemed to think they
should have their water when

00:18:00.307 --> 00:18:02.140
they needed it, when
we needed it the worst.

00:18:02.140 --> 00:18:04.495
And the rest of them, they
didn't care about it at all.

00:18:04.495 --> 00:18:06.036
I think the worst
thing that ever hit

00:18:06.036 --> 00:18:08.320
this country is Richard Baldes.

00:18:08.320 --> 00:18:10.255
He was a thorn in
everybody's side

00:18:10.255 --> 00:18:13.650
and he worked for the
Fish and Wildlife.

00:18:13.650 --> 00:18:16.480
He give us a lot of
problems and everybody else.

00:18:16.480 --> 00:18:19.390
Midvale had a lot of
problems with him.

00:18:19.390 --> 00:18:22.360
He's was a one man band,
I guess, you'd say.

00:18:22.360 --> 00:18:26.140
I think that they
have blinders on.

00:18:26.140 --> 00:18:29.440
I mean, much more even than
most of us have blinders on.

00:18:29.440 --> 00:18:31.300
They've been able
to get all the water

00:18:31.300 --> 00:18:34.480
that they've ever wanted
for all of these years,

00:18:34.480 --> 00:18:37.070
and then finally someone
is saying, wait a minute,

00:18:37.070 --> 00:18:40.890
there's a lot of other uses
of water in the Wind River

00:18:40.890 --> 00:18:47.120
and the whole Wind River
drainage other than irrigation.

00:18:47.120 --> 00:18:49.470
In 1985, the Shoshone
and Arapaho tribes

00:18:49.470 --> 00:18:51.320
adopted a tribal water code.

00:18:51.320 --> 00:18:54.600
And when we adopted
our tribal water code,

00:18:54.600 --> 00:18:57.010
we almost started WWIII.

00:18:57.010 --> 00:19:00.100
There were-- all of the
non-Indians in the country went

00:19:00.100 --> 00:19:01.660
bonkers on us.

00:19:01.660 --> 00:19:03.900
The governor and the
state water engineer

00:19:03.900 --> 00:19:08.290
were going goofy on us because--
oh, them Indians are going

00:19:08.290 --> 00:19:10.610
to burn us out, them Indians
are going to dry us out,

00:19:10.610 --> 00:19:13.120
them Indians are going
to destroy the economy,

00:19:13.120 --> 00:19:15.050
them Indians are
acting up again.

00:19:15.050 --> 00:19:18.250
And the first thing
they did was to issue

00:19:18.250 --> 00:19:21.100
some sort of a water
right under their own laws

00:19:21.100 --> 00:19:22.034
for instream flow.

00:19:22.034 --> 00:19:23.950
They wanted to dedicate
a block of their water

00:19:23.950 --> 00:19:26.920
for a certain stretch
of the Wind River, which

00:19:26.920 --> 00:19:31.900
was downstream from a series
of major diversion canals,

00:19:31.900 --> 00:19:34.677
primarily, that served
non-indian land.

00:19:34.677 --> 00:19:36.260
And there just wasn't
the water there.

00:19:36.260 --> 00:19:37.634
In other words,
we would have had

00:19:37.634 --> 00:19:42.940
to have turn off a lot of people
to recognize this instream flow

00:19:42.940 --> 00:19:43.630
water right.

00:19:43.630 --> 00:19:46.420
People have come to
recognize, primarily,

00:19:46.420 --> 00:19:49.900
because of depleted
rivers, that there

00:19:49.900 --> 00:19:57.130
has to be a provision in the
law to allow for aquatics,

00:19:57.130 --> 00:20:03.280
to allow for a river not
to totally dry up and kill

00:20:03.280 --> 00:20:03.920
the system.

00:20:03.920 --> 00:20:05.530
What we're trying
to do with instream

00:20:05.530 --> 00:20:09.040
flows and maintain a decent
flow in the Wind River,

00:20:09.040 --> 00:20:10.330
benefits all people.

00:20:10.330 --> 00:20:11.980
It benefits the irrigators.

00:20:11.980 --> 00:20:13.890
It benefits the tribes.

00:20:13.890 --> 00:20:15.130
It benefits the fishermen.

00:20:15.130 --> 00:20:17.035
It benefits floaters.

00:20:17.035 --> 00:20:19.710
It benefits people that
want to just take pictures.

00:20:19.710 --> 00:20:21.851
It benefits the people
that live along the river.

00:20:21.851 --> 00:20:23.350
Well, wouldn't it
be a hell of a lot

00:20:23.350 --> 00:20:25.540
better if there was water
in the river, than--

00:20:25.540 --> 00:20:27.430
rather than a dry stream bed.

00:20:27.430 --> 00:20:31.110
If they can use the water, fine,
I think they should use it.

00:20:31.110 --> 00:20:35.820
But just running it down the
river here it benefits nobody.

00:20:35.820 --> 00:20:38.410
That's not putting
it to beneficial use.

00:20:38.410 --> 00:20:43.440
To impact somebody else for the
fish, it's a little hard for me

00:20:43.440 --> 00:20:48.240
to understand why
I should do that.

00:20:48.240 --> 00:20:49.800
What is that fish--

00:20:49.800 --> 00:20:50.990
what is that value?

00:20:50.990 --> 00:20:55.470
To waste the resources means
to let the water run to the sea

00:20:55.470 --> 00:21:02.580
unused, to let a tribe have
possession of a rich territory.

00:21:02.580 --> 00:21:07.200
There's just a very
comfortable benefit

00:21:07.200 --> 00:21:13.840
that comes from seeing
Indians as not ever having

00:21:13.840 --> 00:21:15.640
put the resources
to the right use

00:21:15.640 --> 00:21:18.520
and therefore having
forfeited any claim.

00:21:18.520 --> 00:21:25.320
What I was seeing was
a hope and a desire

00:21:25.320 --> 00:21:31.200
and a belief by the tribal
government at that time--

00:21:31.200 --> 00:21:33.120
that they were going--

00:21:33.120 --> 00:21:36.780
they were one step closer
to self-sufficiency

00:21:36.780 --> 00:21:39.720
and that there was
a synergy involved,

00:21:39.720 --> 00:21:43.080
there was a glint in
their eye that they

00:21:43.080 --> 00:21:49.530
were going to be able to restore
a watershed in a river system

00:21:49.530 --> 00:21:53.100
to something that
mimicked what it once was.

00:21:53.100 --> 00:21:56.490
My mother would cut
us a willow pole.

00:21:56.490 --> 00:21:59.400
And we'd put a short fishing
line on the end of it

00:21:59.400 --> 00:22:01.969
and a hook and worms.

00:22:01.969 --> 00:22:03.510
And we would dangle
that in the river

00:22:03.510 --> 00:22:09.040
and catch mostly flathead chub.

00:22:09.040 --> 00:22:11.230
But at that time, there
was lots and lots of them.

00:22:11.230 --> 00:22:14.500
That fish is essentially
disappeared from the Wind

00:22:14.500 --> 00:22:16.120
River in this area.

00:22:16.120 --> 00:22:19.380
But more significant was
the [INAUDIBLE] and the ling

00:22:19.380 --> 00:22:21.760
burbot, the
freshwater cod, which

00:22:21.760 --> 00:22:25.990
are both extremely
important fish

00:22:25.990 --> 00:22:30.405
species to the Native Americans
that live on the reservation.

00:22:30.405 --> 00:22:33.300
The ling burbot is
probably more important

00:22:33.300 --> 00:22:35.020
than the trout species are.

00:22:35.020 --> 00:22:38.030
If we had consistent flows
year after year after year,

00:22:38.030 --> 00:22:42.269
we may see more resident fish
setting up shop in that area.

00:22:42.269 --> 00:22:43.810
And we're not just
talking about fish

00:22:43.810 --> 00:22:46.101
where we're talking about
bringing the Wind River back,

00:22:46.101 --> 00:22:48.152
we're talking about
groundwater recharge.

00:22:48.152 --> 00:22:49.360
We're talking about wetlands.

00:22:49.360 --> 00:22:51.250
We're talking about
repairing habitat.

00:22:51.250 --> 00:22:53.725
We're talking about a lot
of areas for both fish

00:22:53.725 --> 00:22:55.600
and wildlife along the Wind.

00:22:55.600 --> 00:23:00.760
Whether it's right or wrong that
Wyoming was not in the instream

00:23:00.760 --> 00:23:06.330
flow game back in 1890, the
fact is those water rights

00:23:06.330 --> 00:23:08.470
that grew up on
the stream system

00:23:08.470 --> 00:23:14.440
as Wyoming grew up as a state
pretty much did everything

00:23:14.440 --> 00:23:15.830
that they were supposed to do.

00:23:15.830 --> 00:23:17.205
But I don't think
anybody is just

00:23:17.205 --> 00:23:21.280
going to go tell some irrigator
or farmer with a 1902,

00:23:21.280 --> 00:23:24.640
or a 1906, or a 1910
priority, sorry,

00:23:24.640 --> 00:23:26.860
we need your water
for an instream flow.

00:23:26.860 --> 00:23:32.210
The tribes do have
a 1868 water right,

00:23:32.210 --> 00:23:36.560
which is the oldest
and best in Wyoming.

00:23:36.560 --> 00:23:37.560
But they got to put it--

00:23:37.560 --> 00:23:40.040
it's got to be managed
according to the state code.

00:23:40.040 --> 00:23:42.259
The engineer-- state
engineer Jeff Fassett says,

00:23:42.259 --> 00:23:44.550
this is how we manage the
water in the state of Wyoming

00:23:44.550 --> 00:23:46.010
and you will do the same.

00:23:46.010 --> 00:23:47.480
That's the part they don't like.

00:23:47.480 --> 00:23:52.900
Their philosophy of Jeff Fassett
and in the state of Wyoming--

00:23:52.900 --> 00:23:55.730
there's isn't any
different than irrigators.

00:23:55.730 --> 00:23:59.070
The water here is
for the irrigators.

00:23:59.070 --> 00:24:00.710
And from a tribal
standpoint, I mean,

00:24:00.710 --> 00:24:02.043
that's not even a consideration.

00:24:02.043 --> 00:24:04.460
It's like the two tribes,
Shoshone and Arapaho,

00:24:04.460 --> 00:24:05.950
don't exist.

00:24:05.950 --> 00:24:07.650
Denying the water
is not the issue,

00:24:07.650 --> 00:24:10.730
it's whether the water right to
protect the river is a legal--

00:24:10.730 --> 00:24:11.900
legally protected right.

00:24:11.900 --> 00:24:13.535
The issue is a
jurisdictional issue

00:24:13.535 --> 00:24:16.130
as to who makes those
decisions and how

00:24:16.130 --> 00:24:17.840
do you go about
making that decision.

00:24:17.840 --> 00:24:20.360
Instream flow could be
considered a four letter

00:24:20.360 --> 00:24:26.470
word for Western water
rights because agriculture

00:24:26.470 --> 00:24:28.820
has the lock on Western water.

00:24:28.820 --> 00:24:32.810
And anytime, any entity,
whether it's a tribe or even

00:24:32.810 --> 00:24:36.770
a non-Indian irrigator, if they
want to transfer use of water

00:24:36.770 --> 00:24:38.720
from the beneficial
use of agriculture

00:24:38.720 --> 00:24:44.755
to another beneficial
use, that's a tough task.

00:24:44.755 --> 00:24:47.130
And they don't even
do it for non-Indians,

00:24:47.130 --> 00:24:50.430
so how do you expect them
to do it for Indian people?

00:24:50.430 --> 00:24:53.130
Neither one's going to
give up the jurisdiction.

00:24:53.130 --> 00:24:54.870
And if you ask
each other to, they

00:24:54.870 --> 00:24:56.580
will litigate to
protect sovereignty

00:24:56.580 --> 00:24:59.790
as much as the state of Wyoming
will litigate to protect

00:24:59.790 --> 00:25:01.620
our sovereignty as well.

00:25:01.620 --> 00:25:06.150
The case came to us because
of the desire of the tribes

00:25:06.150 --> 00:25:10.920
to develop a fishery
concept with the maintenance

00:25:10.920 --> 00:25:16.710
of an instream flow
and dealing with that,

00:25:16.710 --> 00:25:19.950
our court by a
majority concluded

00:25:19.950 --> 00:25:22.770
that the reservation
essentially had been established

00:25:22.770 --> 00:25:29.080
as an agricultural and
economic environment

00:25:29.080 --> 00:25:30.872
and so that the
reserved rights were

00:25:30.872 --> 00:25:32.330
the rights that
would be consistent

00:25:32.330 --> 00:25:34.490
with agricultural use--

00:25:34.490 --> 00:25:36.590
instream flow to
maintain a fishery

00:25:36.590 --> 00:25:41.010
was not consistent with
that sort of right.

00:25:41.010 --> 00:25:45.200
Since we restricted it to
agriculture that makes sense

00:25:45.200 --> 00:25:47.750
that we shouldn't allow them to
have instream flow because we

00:25:47.750 --> 00:25:50.290
agreed that it's an
agriculture reservation--

00:25:50.290 --> 00:25:52.670
that was his
rationale pretty much.

00:25:52.670 --> 00:25:54.827
For them to be convinced
that in this day

00:25:54.827 --> 00:25:56.660
and age the only reason
this reservation was

00:25:56.660 --> 00:26:00.210
created for agriculture
just blows you--

00:26:00.210 --> 00:26:03.360
blows me away, especially
here in Wyoming

00:26:03.360 --> 00:26:05.910
and in this part of the country.

00:26:05.910 --> 00:26:10.790
That's a pretty sad commentary
on how far how Indian rights

00:26:10.790 --> 00:26:14.610
have progressed and
Indian issues have

00:26:14.610 --> 00:26:18.120
progressed in this day and age.

00:26:18.120 --> 00:26:21.030
It was an attempt
and a very good one

00:26:21.030 --> 00:26:23.730
on the part of the
Supreme Court justices

00:26:23.730 --> 00:26:29.680
to avoid a war in this space.

00:26:29.680 --> 00:26:32.250
And I think the
justices recognized

00:26:32.250 --> 00:26:40.020
very clearly the potential for
an uprising in this valley.

00:26:40.020 --> 00:26:47.800
And I think they astutely
diverted from that.

00:26:47.800 --> 00:26:49.610
It seems highly
unlikely that anybody

00:26:49.610 --> 00:26:51.450
is going to build
dams and irrigation

00:26:51.450 --> 00:26:56.970
projects to irrigate what are
sagebrush flats at the moment.

00:26:56.970 --> 00:26:59.160
This doesn't make sense.

00:26:59.160 --> 00:27:03.350
So what we have is a situation
in which the tribes have

00:27:03.350 --> 00:27:06.310
the right to a tremendous
amount of water

00:27:06.310 --> 00:27:09.790
that they have no
way to utilize.

00:27:09.790 --> 00:27:15.680
Here we have indigenous
tribes that basically

00:27:15.680 --> 00:27:20.640
have all of what we now call
the United States of America,

00:27:20.640 --> 00:27:23.213
200 years later they
don't have very much it.

00:27:26.670 --> 00:27:31.600
And, of course, the
other side of that coin

00:27:31.600 --> 00:27:34.560
is, well, that's what
happens to you when you lose.

00:27:37.506 --> 00:27:39.961
[MUSIC PLAYING]

00:28:00.140 --> 00:28:02.480
One of the things that's--

00:28:02.480 --> 00:28:05.690
strikes me about this
case and would probably

00:28:05.690 --> 00:28:07.580
strike most lawyers
about this case

00:28:07.580 --> 00:28:13.090
is, despite all the objections
to the instream flow permit

00:28:13.090 --> 00:28:16.630
by the state and by
local irrigators,

00:28:16.630 --> 00:28:21.700
there was no evidence
of any economic,

00:28:21.700 --> 00:28:27.040
or actual injury or
deprivation of water

00:28:27.040 --> 00:28:29.950
caused by the tribes'
instream flow permit

00:28:29.950 --> 00:28:32.590
to any of the state users.

00:28:32.590 --> 00:28:36.040
Maybe that gives you some
idea of the philosophical

00:28:36.040 --> 00:28:38.770
or the political importance
of water and water

00:28:38.770 --> 00:28:45.010
rights in Wyoming, that the
court would look at, and hear

00:28:45.010 --> 00:28:46.720
and decide a case
where there wasn't

00:28:46.720 --> 00:28:48.720
any actual injury in fact.

00:28:48.720 --> 00:28:54.140
There's just little, if
any, recognition whatsoever

00:28:54.140 --> 00:28:58.390
of treaty rights
and water rights

00:28:58.390 --> 00:29:00.250
that were granted to the tribes.

00:29:00.250 --> 00:29:07.054
And until they become farmers or
until they start growing rice,

00:29:07.054 --> 00:29:08.470
they're not going
to let them have

00:29:08.470 --> 00:29:12.790
their water at the
expense of a sustainable

00:29:12.790 --> 00:29:16.780
resource in fisheries
and wildlife,

00:29:16.780 --> 00:29:20.846
whose lifeblood depends
on that river system.

00:29:20.846 --> 00:29:23.326
[MUSIC PLAYING]

00:29:35.740 --> 00:29:40.610
What we've done in our
water policy in this country

00:29:40.610 --> 00:29:43.150
it seems to me as
getting Jumbo to stand up

00:29:43.150 --> 00:29:46.520
on the little rubber
ball in the circus.

00:29:46.520 --> 00:29:48.804
Jumbo gets up there
and bounces around

00:29:48.804 --> 00:29:51.220
for a little while and the
audience all claps as-- my God,

00:29:51.220 --> 00:29:52.672
look, we did it.

00:29:52.672 --> 00:29:55.930
And then, eventually,
Jumbo tumbles off.

00:29:55.930 --> 00:29:59.620
And I think this is very much
true of irrigated agriculture--

00:29:59.620 --> 00:30:01.840
that is you can sustain
this for a little while,

00:30:01.840 --> 00:30:05.230
at great public
cost and investment,

00:30:05.230 --> 00:30:08.800
but the economic factors and
the environmental factors

00:30:08.800 --> 00:30:10.450
just keep increasing
to the point

00:30:10.450 --> 00:30:13.840
that it becomes totally
irrational to try and sustain

00:30:13.840 --> 00:30:14.740
this in many places.

00:30:14.740 --> 00:30:15.740
[MUSIC PLAYING]

00:30:16.240 --> 00:30:18.030
Look, the river still
dries up every year,

00:30:18.030 --> 00:30:19.740
there still isn't
instream flows,

00:30:19.740 --> 00:30:22.140
the state's still
controlling all the water,

00:30:22.140 --> 00:30:24.940
the irrigators are taking
all the water that they want.

00:30:24.940 --> 00:30:27.231
I think there are a lot of
people who would really like

00:30:27.231 --> 00:30:31.360
to see the river a lot-- see a
thriving river in that part--

00:30:31.360 --> 00:30:33.070
in that stretch of river.

00:30:33.070 --> 00:30:37.414
And some people think it's a
shame that it's the way it is.

00:30:37.414 --> 00:30:38.830
But I think
overriding all of that

00:30:38.830 --> 00:30:43.580
is the fact that this community
has its roots in agriculture,

00:30:43.580 --> 00:30:48.190
and the majority of
people don't want

00:30:48.190 --> 00:30:52.690
to see that economic base
jeopardized in any way.

00:30:52.690 --> 00:30:54.910
My brother, he was--

00:30:54.910 --> 00:30:58.870
he's on a mining board
someplace in Colorado,

00:30:58.870 --> 00:31:00.580
and he's telling
me the other day,

00:31:00.580 --> 00:31:02.380
there's only two
things in this world

00:31:02.380 --> 00:31:03.632
that keeps the people going.

00:31:03.632 --> 00:31:05.590
And he said, you either
grow it or you mine it,

00:31:05.590 --> 00:31:06.670
there's nothing else.

00:31:06.670 --> 00:31:08.604
There's nothing else here.

00:31:08.604 --> 00:31:11.014
[WATER FLOWING]

00:31:11.980 --> 00:31:13.566
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]

00:31:54.539 --> 00:31:55.580
That's what I was saying.

00:31:59.780 --> 00:32:02.530
[MUSIC PLAYING]