00:00:04.910 --> 00:00:10.500
(acoustic guitar music)

00:00:10.500 --> 00:00:14.690
- Somewhere along the way the
Jesus movement got hijacked.

00:00:14.690 --> 00:00:19.260
And thousands of years
later the Jesus movement

00:00:19.260 --> 00:00:23.150
ran into 21st century capitalism

00:00:23.150 --> 00:00:26.620
combined with a deeply
entrenched political

00:00:26.620 --> 00:00:31.020
movement that had a
thousand other motives.

00:00:31.020 --> 00:00:33.750
And I think it's really,
it's so important

00:00:33.750 --> 00:00:35.990
for people to understand
this thing that calls

00:00:35.990 --> 00:00:42.635
itself Jesus is so
far from its roots.

00:00:46.100 --> 00:00:50.290
- [Man] That is Rob
Bell, one of the most

00:00:50.290 --> 00:00:53.680
influential preachers
in the world.

00:00:53.680 --> 00:00:55.630
- [Man] Rob Bell has
been raising a lot

00:00:55.630 --> 00:00:58.130
of eyebrows lately
for his evolving views

00:00:58.130 --> 00:01:00.080
about Christianity
and the Bible.

00:01:00.080 --> 00:01:02.780
- [Man] Some evangelicals are
calling it twisted scripture,

00:01:02.780 --> 00:01:05.250
also inspiring
charges of heresy.

00:01:05.250 --> 00:01:08.610
- Well, ladies and gentlemen
this man is a false teacher.

00:01:08.610 --> 00:01:10.750
He teaches lies.

00:01:10.750 --> 00:01:12.250
He does not obey
the commandments

00:01:12.250 --> 00:01:14.200
of God because he
doesn't love God.

00:01:14.200 --> 00:01:16.960
But Rob Bell should
fear God because

00:01:16.960 --> 00:01:19.070
he's a liar and he's a heretic.

00:01:19.070 --> 00:01:22.540
(acoustic guitar music)

00:01:22.540 --> 00:01:24.400
- Rob Bell will tell
you that you can keep

00:01:24.400 --> 00:01:28.230
being a homo and
still get to heaven.

00:01:28.230 --> 00:01:32.900
But when a man gets saved
he becomes homo no mo'!

00:01:32.900 --> 00:01:35.920
- [Man] You have
transgressed the laws of

00:01:35.920 --> 00:01:38.070
the living God and
you shall pay for it.

00:01:38.070 --> 00:01:40.720
- [Man] One
megachurch pastor has

00:01:40.720 --> 00:01:42.880
ignited a theological
fire storm.

00:01:42.880 --> 00:01:46.260
- Men like Rob Bell, they
claim to be working of God,

00:01:46.260 --> 00:01:49.620
they claim to be preaching
and speaking the words of God.

00:01:49.620 --> 00:01:52.670
- [Man] Rob Bell
does not seem to

00:01:52.670 --> 00:01:54.970
understand the
basics of the gospel.

00:01:54.970 --> 00:01:57.910
- If you can still feel
bad about your sin,

00:01:57.910 --> 00:02:01.990
don't go in this place
because Rob Bell is a robber.

00:02:01.990 --> 00:02:04.410
He wants to control
your conscience.

00:02:04.410 --> 00:02:06.500
He wants to dull
the voice of God.

00:02:06.500 --> 00:02:18.860
- [Interviewer] Okay, so for
someone that doesn't know you

00:02:18.860 --> 00:02:22.350
tell me, I don't know,
how do you describe you.

00:02:22.350 --> 00:02:24.300
Like what, what's your name?

00:02:24.300 --> 00:02:25.310
What's your work?

00:02:25.310 --> 00:02:25.920
(laughs)

00:02:25.920 --> 00:02:31.230
- Uh, my name is Rob Bell.

00:02:31.230 --> 00:02:37.080
Robert Holmes Bell,
Junior, born in 1970.

00:02:37.080 --> 00:02:40.410
I make things, I was
trained as a pastor.

00:02:40.410 --> 00:02:42.620
So I started giving sermons.

00:02:42.620 --> 00:02:44.210
- Okay, how would
I describe Rob?

00:02:46.768 --> 00:02:48.560
First of all, I always
have to sort of grin

00:02:48.560 --> 00:02:50.790
the second I even
think of his name

00:02:50.790 --> 00:02:55.250
because he has such
joyful vitality.

00:02:55.250 --> 00:02:56.990
Ladies and gentlemen,
the spiritual

00:02:56.990 --> 00:03:00.280
and lyrical Jesse
James, Pastor Rob Bell.

00:03:00.280 --> 00:03:02.110
(audience clapping)

00:03:02.110 --> 00:03:04.730
Give it up, the gangster of God!

00:03:04.730 --> 00:03:08.360
- Rob is somebody
who loves life.

00:03:08.360 --> 00:03:12.780
Like, he just, he seems
to find the essence

00:03:12.780 --> 00:03:16.580
of life and then embrace it.

00:03:16.580 --> 00:03:24.150
- Rob has a kind of infecting
enthusiasm for life,

00:03:24.150 --> 00:03:25.900
for people, for ideas.

00:03:25.900 --> 00:03:29.102
I think at the core he
wants to help people.

00:03:29.102 --> 00:03:30.560
- I had some sense
like this was an

00:03:30.560 --> 00:03:33.230
art form that needed
to be reclaimed.

00:03:33.230 --> 00:03:36.570
Like if you think about Martin
Luther King I have a dream.

00:03:36.570 --> 00:03:38.820
That was a sermon,
but nobody was like,

00:03:38.820 --> 00:03:40.310
oh, he was funnier last week.

00:03:40.310 --> 00:03:41.310
Do you know what I mean?

00:03:41.310 --> 00:03:42.643
You were caught up in something.

00:03:42.643 --> 00:03:44.750
It was dangerous,
subversive, hopeful.

00:03:44.750 --> 00:03:47.177
It wasn't about
essentially building up a

00:03:47.177 --> 00:03:48.760
particular religion,
it was about what

00:03:48.760 --> 00:03:49.700
it means to be human.

00:03:49.700 --> 00:03:52.030
- [Emcee] Time Magazine
named him one of the 100

00:03:52.030 --> 00:03:54.098
most influential
people in the world.

00:03:54.098 --> 00:03:55.640
Please join me in
welcoming Rob Bell.

00:03:55.640 --> 00:03:56.432
(audience clapping)

00:03:56.432 --> 00:04:04.070
- [Pete Rollins] When I
first met Rob what I was

00:04:04.070 --> 00:04:06.980
confronted with was someone
who was without fear.

00:04:06.980 --> 00:04:08.690
Someone who loved life.

00:04:08.690 --> 00:04:10.280
Someone who was
passionate about life.

00:04:10.280 --> 00:04:15.030
- He's the provocateur,
intellectually and spiritually

00:04:15.030 --> 00:04:17.380
in a way that just
draws people deeper.

00:04:17.380 --> 00:04:19.850
- So, God is for
humans flourishing.

00:04:19.850 --> 00:04:20.350
- [Rob] Yes.

00:04:20.350 --> 00:04:20.480
- Yeah.

00:04:20.480 --> 00:04:22.470
- Yeah, yeah, and on
earth is where it matters.

00:04:22.470 --> 00:04:24.810
- It is my honor to welcome
to the show live in studio,

00:04:24.810 --> 00:04:26.790
Pastor Rob Bell,
everybody, Rob Bell!

00:04:26.790 --> 00:04:30.080
(audience clapping)

00:04:30.080 --> 00:04:33.390
- He gets science involved.

00:04:33.390 --> 00:04:35.460
He gets art involved.

00:04:35.460 --> 00:04:37.610
He gets pain involved.

00:04:37.610 --> 00:04:40.390
He gets interfaith involved.

00:04:40.390 --> 00:04:42.330
And he's fearless and free.

00:04:42.330 --> 00:04:45.220
- Essentially at every
stage of our lives

00:04:45.220 --> 00:04:48.830
there's somebody leaning
a ladder up against

00:04:48.830 --> 00:04:52.390
a building going,
this is how you climb.

00:04:52.390 --> 00:04:54.390
And then there's that
moment when you're driving

00:04:54.390 --> 00:04:58.040
to work that one morning and
something within you is like,

00:04:58.040 --> 00:05:04.910
what is the point
of any of this?

00:05:04.910 --> 00:05:08.770
- I think he is a
paradigm shifter

00:05:08.770 --> 00:05:12.170
and shaper more
than he realizes.

00:05:12.170 --> 00:05:15.560
I mean, this guy is so
beautifully bridging

00:05:15.560 --> 00:05:18.330
intelligence and awareness
and consciousness

00:05:18.330 --> 00:05:20.380
to reality that he's
way ahead of his time.

00:05:20.380 --> 00:05:23.250
- Now, for thousands
of years people

00:05:23.250 --> 00:05:26.170
have told stories to
hold them together.

00:05:26.170 --> 00:05:28.010
There's one story
that's been around

00:05:28.010 --> 00:05:29.900
for several thousand years.

00:05:29.900 --> 00:05:33.370
The story goes
something like this.

00:05:33.370 --> 00:05:36.840
Our tribe is the best.

00:05:36.840 --> 00:05:39.710
Our God is the best.

00:05:39.710 --> 00:05:42.360
Our way is the best.

00:05:42.360 --> 00:05:45.780
So come, join us, or
we'll kick your ass.

00:05:45.780 --> 00:05:50.060
(audience laughing)

00:05:50.060 --> 00:05:54.750
And you can raise a lot
of money with that story.

00:05:54.750 --> 00:05:59.110
And you can build some pretty
big buildings with that story.

00:05:59.110 --> 00:06:02.440
And you can justify a lot
of war with that story.

00:06:02.440 --> 00:06:06.260
And there's another story
that's come on strong recently.

00:06:06.260 --> 00:06:08.940
That story goes
something like this.

00:06:08.940 --> 00:06:12.020
There's nothing going on here.

00:06:12.020 --> 00:06:14.350
There's no bigger story.

00:06:14.350 --> 00:06:16.310
All we are is a
collection of our

00:06:16.310 --> 00:06:19.020
cells and synapses
and our biology.

00:06:19.020 --> 00:06:20.530
There's nothing
else going on here.

00:06:20.530 --> 00:06:23.650
And actually those ancient,
primitive, magical,

00:06:23.650 --> 00:06:26.840
mythical stories about
forces and beings and gods,

00:06:26.840 --> 00:06:28.750
that's actually
part of the problem.

00:06:28.750 --> 00:06:30.610
We need to leave that behind.

00:06:30.610 --> 00:06:34.270
All there is is us here, now,
everything is essentially

00:06:34.270 --> 00:06:37.430
a survival of the fittest
to a certain degree,

00:06:37.430 --> 00:06:39.737
and then you die and that's it.

00:06:39.737 --> 00:06:41.570
And so what happens is
these stories sort of

00:06:41.570 --> 00:06:43.600
bump up against each
other and sometimes

00:06:43.600 --> 00:06:45.140
they compete against each other.

00:06:45.140 --> 00:06:48.650
But I have this sense
across our world

00:06:48.650 --> 00:06:51.090
that none of these
stories are actually up to

00:06:51.090 --> 00:06:54.660
giving us the glue,
giving us the meaning,

00:06:54.660 --> 00:06:56.660
giving us the arc
and the narrative

00:06:56.660 --> 00:06:59.640
we actually need
to live with hope

00:06:59.640 --> 00:07:01.732
and courage in the modern world.

00:07:01.732 --> 00:07:03.440
- [Interviewer] So
what was it originally

00:07:03.440 --> 00:07:08.050
that you saw that felt
important and interesting?

00:07:08.050 --> 00:07:12.360
- When I was young my parents
would take us to church

00:07:12.360 --> 00:07:17.650
and I remember sitting
there thinking;

00:07:17.650 --> 00:07:19.640
this is the big stuff.

00:07:19.640 --> 00:07:21.620
This is the mojo,
this is the juice,

00:07:21.620 --> 00:07:24.880
this is love, grace,
peace, forgiveness.

00:07:24.880 --> 00:07:26.430
What are we doing here?

00:07:26.430 --> 00:07:30.950
We're on this floating
ball of dirt and water

00:07:30.950 --> 00:07:33.470
hurtling through space
at 67,000 miles an hour.

00:07:33.470 --> 00:07:36.440
Like, what is this thing we all

00:07:36.440 --> 00:07:38.800
just sort of assume to be life?

00:07:38.800 --> 00:07:40.550
And I remember sitting
there and we would,

00:07:40.550 --> 00:07:43.710
I would sit there
in church and think;

00:07:43.710 --> 00:07:46.300
this is the biggest
stuff human beings

00:07:46.300 --> 00:07:49.680
have been wrestling with
for thousands of years.

00:07:49.680 --> 00:07:53.250
This is the most interesting.

00:07:53.250 --> 00:07:56.340
This is the most interesting
thing imaginable,

00:07:56.340 --> 00:07:58.400
yet why is this
gathering so boring?

00:07:58.400 --> 00:08:00.920
- Back when Rob and
I were dating he

00:08:00.920 --> 00:08:02.390
was going to seminary.

00:08:02.390 --> 00:08:05.410
We used to go to
lunch and talk about

00:08:05.410 --> 00:08:08.920
if we were to start a church,
what would it look like?

00:08:08.920 --> 00:08:12.120
So that started,
oh, I don't know,

00:08:12.120 --> 00:08:14.470
that was probably,
that was probably

00:08:14.470 --> 00:08:16.580
five years before
Mars Hill started.

00:08:16.580 --> 00:08:22.430
So, we had kind of been throwing
things around for a while.

00:08:22.430 --> 00:08:27.510
Mars Hill started on a Sunday

00:08:27.510 --> 00:08:29.110
just by word of mouth.

00:08:29.110 --> 00:08:32.659
So, the first Sunday we
were completely shocked

00:08:32.659 --> 00:08:34.390
by the number of
people who came.

00:08:34.390 --> 00:08:36.409
I think there were
1200 people who came.

00:08:36.409 --> 00:08:38.370
It was just, it was chaos.

00:08:38.370 --> 00:08:42.780
Just the number of cars, the
people, but it was exciting.

00:08:42.780 --> 00:08:44.390
I mean, not only
we were excited,

00:08:44.390 --> 00:08:46.660
but I think everyone who
was there was excited

00:08:46.660 --> 00:08:49.860
because it felt like we were all

00:08:49.860 --> 00:08:51.735
part of something
that was happening,

00:08:51.735 --> 00:08:53.110
something new that
was happening.

00:08:53.110 --> 00:08:55.300
- It didn't slow down, really,

00:08:55.300 --> 00:08:58.770
for the first five,
six, seven, eight years.

00:08:58.770 --> 00:09:02.510
It just kept, kind of,
growing and ballooning.

00:09:02.510 --> 00:09:04.950
It's possible for
religious institutions

00:09:04.950 --> 00:09:08.590
and for churches to
actually work against

00:09:08.590 --> 00:09:11.370
an integrated
holistic spirituality.

00:09:11.370 --> 00:09:15.080
- He's gonna say things
that everyone is floating

00:09:15.080 --> 00:09:18.750
around in the back of
people's minds or hearts,

00:09:18.750 --> 00:09:21.690
and he's gonna say it and
it's going to piss people off.

00:09:21.690 --> 00:09:22.560
And it did.

00:09:22.560 --> 00:09:25.880
- You will often run in
in religious communities

00:09:25.880 --> 00:09:27.770
and faith communities,
to the idea

00:09:27.770 --> 00:09:31.600
if you would just
repent then God would.

00:09:31.600 --> 00:09:33.330
And so, communities
take on their own,

00:09:33.330 --> 00:09:36.363
if you would just step
through these, these hoops.

00:09:36.363 --> 00:09:37.530
If you would just go through

00:09:37.530 --> 00:09:41.760
these four steps,
then God would.

00:09:41.760 --> 00:09:44.870
But for the first Christians,
repentance was never,

00:09:44.870 --> 00:09:46.340
if you would just
do these things,

00:09:46.340 --> 00:09:47.650
then God would do these things.

00:09:47.650 --> 00:09:53.390
It was, do you understand
what God has done?

00:09:53.390 --> 00:09:57.220
And you are now being
invited to simply trust it.

00:09:57.220 --> 00:09:58.930
Repentance was
never trying to get

00:09:58.930 --> 00:10:00.690
God to do something
because God has

00:10:00.690 --> 00:10:02.790
already made peace
with all things.

00:10:02.790 --> 00:10:04.740
If you are repenting
so that God will

00:10:04.740 --> 00:10:06.510
somehow show up
and do something,

00:10:06.510 --> 00:10:10.380
you are bargaining with
the wrong kind of God.

00:10:10.380 --> 00:10:12.610
There were a number
of years there where

00:10:12.610 --> 00:10:14.590
it got very big and
I was giving sermons

00:10:14.590 --> 00:10:18.700
and I was the posture
of, here's what's true

00:10:18.700 --> 00:10:20.650
and I'm gonna get you
to believe what's true.

00:10:20.650 --> 00:10:23.750
That way of thinking
about it just didn't work.

00:10:23.750 --> 00:10:28.260
And I started, I started
taking the whole thing apart.

00:10:28.260 --> 00:10:31.180
I just happened
to be at the time,

00:10:31.180 --> 00:10:32.980
the pastor of a major,
especially the God,

00:10:32.980 --> 00:10:35.810
like some being somewhere else

00:10:35.810 --> 00:10:37.560
who comes here from time to time

00:10:37.560 --> 00:10:40.370
and maybe gets involved
or doesn't get involved,

00:10:40.370 --> 00:10:42.140
or maybe intervenes
or doesn't intervene,

00:10:42.140 --> 00:10:44.490
or maybe answers a prayer,
or doesn't answer a prayer.

00:10:44.490 --> 00:10:46.780
That conception of the divine,

00:10:46.780 --> 00:10:48.870
because it would have
been nice to have

00:10:48.870 --> 00:10:51.640
showed up at the
holocaust, by the way.

00:10:51.640 --> 00:10:54.720
That conception of the divine
was actually what was dying.

00:10:54.720 --> 00:10:58.300
- Rob is somebody who
was raised in a very

00:10:58.300 --> 00:11:02.460
particularly narrow
spiritual tradition.

00:11:02.460 --> 00:11:06.750
Who, like many people,
from a young age,

00:11:06.750 --> 00:11:10.170
found sustenance from
that spiritual tradition.

00:11:10.170 --> 00:11:11.670
Found enough
sustenance from it that

00:11:11.670 --> 00:11:13.950
he decided to devote
his life to it.

00:11:13.950 --> 00:11:16.790
And then matured in the
evolution of his thinking,

00:11:16.790 --> 00:11:18.950
to a place where the
constructs of that

00:11:18.950 --> 00:11:21.340
spiritual tradition no
longer worked for him.

00:11:21.340 --> 00:11:23.200
This is not an unusual story.

00:11:23.200 --> 00:11:26.670
Up until then, you're talking
about a lot of people.

00:11:26.670 --> 00:11:28.380
The reaction that he
had to that, though,

00:11:28.380 --> 00:11:30.340
has been so intensely creative.

00:11:30.340 --> 00:11:32.490
- The leadership
was super scared.

00:11:32.490 --> 00:11:34.000
I think they sensed the kind of

00:11:34.000 --> 00:11:35.770
pressure he was
putting on the church,

00:11:35.770 --> 00:11:38.370
but also it suddenly
became this bigger thing.

00:11:38.370 --> 00:11:42.740
He's pushing on a
trap door. (laughs)

00:11:42.740 --> 00:11:47.080
And if this thing
flies open, then it's,

00:11:47.080 --> 00:11:49.430
you know, suddenly
he's, instead of being

00:11:49.430 --> 00:11:52.190
the coolest
Christian in America,

00:11:52.190 --> 00:11:54.240
he's gonna be the biggest
heretic in America.

00:11:54.240 --> 00:11:57.480
- Several years ago we had
an art show at our church

00:11:57.480 --> 00:11:59.930
and people brought in
all kinds of sculptures

00:11:59.930 --> 00:12:02.060
and paintings and we
put them on display.

00:12:02.060 --> 00:12:03.780
And there was this
one piece that

00:12:03.780 --> 00:12:06.580
had a quote from Gandhi in it.

00:12:06.580 --> 00:12:09.250
And lots of people found
this piece compelling.

00:12:09.250 --> 00:12:10.950
They'd stop and
sort of stare at it

00:12:10.950 --> 00:12:12.370
and take it in or reflect on it,

00:12:12.370 --> 00:12:14.360
but not everybody found
it that compelling.

00:12:14.360 --> 00:12:16.310
Somewhere in the
course of the art show

00:12:16.310 --> 00:12:19.200
somebody attached
a handwritten note

00:12:19.200 --> 00:12:21.760
to the piece and
on the note they

00:12:21.760 --> 00:12:26.850
had written, "Reality
check, he's in hell."

00:12:26.850 --> 00:12:28.390
Gandhi's in hell?

00:12:28.390 --> 00:12:29.690
He is?

00:12:29.690 --> 00:12:31.860
And someone knows this for sure?

00:12:31.860 --> 00:12:35.890
And felt the need to
let the rest of us know?

00:12:35.890 --> 00:12:40.180
Will only a few select
people make it to heaven?

00:12:40.180 --> 00:12:42.520
And will billions and billions

00:12:42.520 --> 00:12:45.580
of people burn forever in hell?

00:12:45.580 --> 00:12:50.270
And if that's the case, how
do you become one of the few?

00:12:50.270 --> 00:12:52.630
Is it what you believe,
or what you say,

00:12:52.630 --> 00:12:55.140
or what you do, or who you know?

00:12:55.140 --> 00:12:57.100
Or something that
happens in your heart?

00:12:57.100 --> 00:12:59.350
Or do you need to be
initiated, or baptized,

00:12:59.350 --> 00:13:01.890
or take a class, or converted,
or being born again?

00:13:01.890 --> 00:13:05.300
How does one become
one of these few?

00:13:05.300 --> 00:13:09.250
- [Man] When I read Love Wins
I said to Rob on the phone

00:13:09.250 --> 00:13:12.200
that they're going
to crucify you.

00:13:12.200 --> 00:13:13.230
And I meant it.

00:13:13.230 --> 00:13:16.520
- When Love Wins came out
there was a certain segment

00:13:16.520 --> 00:13:20.520
of the Christian community
who were angry about the book.

00:13:20.520 --> 00:13:21.970
They were up in arms about it.

00:13:21.970 --> 00:13:25.420
He put his finger on a
doubt, on a questioning,

00:13:25.420 --> 00:13:27.140
that was in that community,

00:13:27.140 --> 00:13:29.318
but that wasn't able
to be expressed.

00:13:29.318 --> 00:13:30.610
- The book is called Love Wins,

00:13:30.610 --> 00:13:31.880
a book about heaven,
hell, and the fate

00:13:31.880 --> 00:13:33.420
of every person who ever lived.

00:13:33.420 --> 00:13:34.730
It's already created
something of a stir

00:13:34.730 --> 00:13:36.647
in the evangelical
Christian community because

00:13:36.647 --> 00:13:38.823
of Bell's provocative
take on heaven and hell.

00:13:38.823 --> 00:13:40.740
- A Michigan pastor is
stirring up controversy

00:13:40.740 --> 00:13:43.190
with an optimistic message
about the afterlife,

00:13:43.190 --> 00:13:45.870
challenging traditional
Christian ideas about hell.

00:13:45.870 --> 00:13:47.750
- At the Time Magazine
cover last week

00:13:47.750 --> 00:13:49.500
where a preacher in
Michigan who wrote

00:13:49.500 --> 00:13:51.930
a book, says there's
really no hell.

00:13:51.930 --> 00:13:53.810
That God is not a
monster, he wouldn't

00:13:53.810 --> 00:13:56.742
assign any human being
to eternal damnation.

00:13:56.742 --> 00:13:57.700
How do you answer that?

00:13:57.700 --> 00:14:02.280
- Well, first of all, I believe
the man is a false teacher.

00:14:02.280 --> 00:14:04.570
I believe he's a heretic
because the Bible's

00:14:04.570 --> 00:14:06.530
very clear that there is a hell.

00:14:06.530 --> 00:14:09.710
And if you look at
Revelation chapter 20,

00:14:09.710 --> 00:14:12.150
it not only is a person
condemned to hell,

00:14:12.150 --> 00:14:13.730
they are thrown into hell, Bill.

00:14:13.730 --> 00:14:18.710
- He's challenging
a status quo that is

00:14:18.710 --> 00:14:23.540
profoundly invested in
its conservative ideals.

00:14:23.540 --> 00:14:27.550
And they don't like it, right?

00:14:27.550 --> 00:14:30.135
Like, this is not going
down easy for a lot

00:14:30.135 --> 00:14:31.760
of people, the stuff
that he is saying.

00:14:31.760 --> 00:14:34.880
You stop preaching hell,
people get really mad.

00:14:34.880 --> 00:14:36.970
People whose entire
theology and their

00:14:36.970 --> 00:14:39.540
whole conservative
construct is based on that,

00:14:39.540 --> 00:14:41.790
people get really,
really, really upset.

00:14:41.790 --> 00:14:45.160
- If you, from an
early age, are told

00:14:45.160 --> 00:14:48.580
you might get tortured
forever in hell.

00:14:48.580 --> 00:14:51.370
You essentially, what you
hear, especially as a kid,

00:14:51.370 --> 00:14:55.180
is the universe is
not a safe place.

00:14:55.180 --> 00:14:57.040
The universe is not a safe place

00:14:57.040 --> 00:15:01.540
and the deepest,
most powerful forces,

00:15:01.540 --> 00:15:05.110
in reality, might
actually in the end,

00:15:05.110 --> 00:15:07.460
align themselves against me.

00:15:07.460 --> 00:15:09.610
That's what the psyche
or the soul hears.

00:15:09.610 --> 00:15:11.850
- You can never trust that God

00:15:11.850 --> 00:15:13.640
because that God
is not trustworthy.

00:15:13.640 --> 00:15:15.265
You could tick him
off and he'll change

00:15:15.265 --> 00:15:18.040
his attitude towards you
and you can go to hell.

00:15:18.040 --> 00:15:22.460
We were never into
eternal security.

00:15:22.460 --> 00:15:26.790
We always felt saved,
but never safe with God.

00:15:26.790 --> 00:15:34.090
- I guess I was told growing
up that my natural self,

00:15:34.090 --> 00:15:36.620
because I was a
human, was sinful.

00:15:36.620 --> 00:15:39.260
In other words, wrong,
a problem to God.

00:15:39.260 --> 00:15:42.700
And such a severe
problem that when I die

00:15:42.700 --> 00:15:45.610
it's so nasty that God's
gonna have to burn me

00:15:45.610 --> 00:15:48.460
for millions of years because
he can't come near me.

00:15:48.460 --> 00:15:53.800
Now, what kind of creator
can't accept his creation?

00:15:53.800 --> 00:15:58.180
- I grew up with
that belief that if

00:15:58.180 --> 00:16:00.820
you don't know Jesus
you're going to hell.

00:16:00.820 --> 00:16:07.460
And I carried around
a lot of guilt for not

00:16:07.460 --> 00:16:12.740
being able to share
Christ with my friends

00:16:12.740 --> 00:16:16.450
and I might, I
mean, I heard talks

00:16:16.450 --> 00:16:20.040
about how I might
be their only hope.

00:16:20.040 --> 00:16:23.070
I carried around
such guilt that I was

00:16:23.070 --> 00:16:27.650
responsible for my
friends' eternal damnation.

00:16:27.650 --> 00:16:31.220
- What Rob was doing
is the type of honest

00:16:31.220 --> 00:16:33.970
thinking usually
reserved for a comedian.

00:16:33.970 --> 00:16:36.090
I don't mean he was super punchy

00:16:36.090 --> 00:16:39.720
or straightforwardly hilarious.

00:16:39.720 --> 00:16:42.320
I mean he was thinking
critically in a way

00:16:42.320 --> 00:16:45.100
that comedians normally
are paid to think.

00:16:45.100 --> 00:16:47.860
Specifically, when he was like,
the age of accountability,

00:16:47.860 --> 00:16:51.790
just this whole thing
that no one talks about.

00:16:51.790 --> 00:16:53.900
And when he said, the
age of accountability,

00:16:53.900 --> 00:16:55.910
I'm sure people know,
before you reach

00:16:55.910 --> 00:16:58.040
a certain age different
churches differ on the age,

00:16:58.040 --> 00:16:59.457
but before you
reach a certain age

00:16:59.457 --> 00:17:01.050
if you die you go
straight to heaven.

00:17:01.050 --> 00:17:02.630
So if a child dies
it goes to heaven.

00:17:02.630 --> 00:17:06.599
And then Rob says, wouldn't
it be more gracious

00:17:06.599 --> 00:17:09.630
to murder a child and
guarantee eternity

00:17:09.630 --> 00:17:12.500
in heaven than let it live out

00:17:12.500 --> 00:17:15.069
and flip a coin, it
could go to hell.

00:17:15.069 --> 00:17:17.740
And I was like, holy
shit, that's it!

00:17:17.740 --> 00:17:19.119
That's what a
comedian would say.

00:17:19.119 --> 00:17:21.760
And that's what the weird
guy at the party would say,

00:17:21.760 --> 00:17:25.780
but it's not what someone
typically would say in love.

00:17:25.780 --> 00:17:27.329
You know what I mean?

00:17:27.329 --> 00:17:29.790
Not just to deconstruct
it, but to go like,

00:17:29.790 --> 00:17:31.240
what are you saying?

00:17:31.240 --> 00:17:33.180
Is this really
what we're selling?

00:17:33.180 --> 00:17:37.400
Is this really why this message
has persisted all this time?

00:17:37.400 --> 00:17:40.150
- For many people in our
culture the fundamental

00:17:40.150 --> 00:17:42.380
way they understand
heaven is evacuation.

00:17:42.380 --> 00:17:42.880
Jesus--

00:17:42.880 --> 00:17:43.900
- [Interviewer] Someplace else.

00:17:43.900 --> 00:17:45.690
- Yeah, essentially
Jesus is the ticket

00:17:45.690 --> 00:17:47.770
and if you believe,
say, confess, repent,

00:17:47.770 --> 00:17:50.680
whatever the right, you know,
different stripe tells you,

00:17:50.680 --> 00:17:52.960
or the different tribe tells
you is the way to do it,

00:17:52.960 --> 00:17:55.420
then you go somewhere
else, somewhere other

00:17:55.420 --> 00:17:56.130
than this place.

00:17:56.130 --> 00:17:58.310
And so a lot of the
dominant images, then,

00:17:58.310 --> 00:18:02.170
are of clouds and puppies and
white robes and perfect hair.

00:18:02.170 --> 00:18:04.480
- So traditionalists
are saying that

00:18:04.480 --> 00:18:06.530
you're actually changing the way

00:18:06.530 --> 00:18:08.460
in which the Bible's
interpreted to make

00:18:08.460 --> 00:18:10.370
it more palatable
to more people.

00:18:10.370 --> 00:18:11.620
How do you respond?

00:18:11.620 --> 00:18:14.270
- Well, first off, I
wrote the book because

00:18:14.270 --> 00:18:16.490
I believe that God loves
everybody, everywhere.

00:18:16.490 --> 00:18:19.390
And at the essence of
the Christian message

00:18:19.390 --> 00:18:21.510
is this announcement
that Jesus has come

00:18:21.510 --> 00:18:24.580
to offer us this love and
invite it to everybody.

00:18:24.580 --> 00:18:27.360
This is the most
orthodox, straightforward

00:18:27.360 --> 00:18:29.700
gospel of the world
that God sent Jesus.

00:18:29.700 --> 00:18:31.470
So in many ways the
book is simply trying

00:18:31.470 --> 00:18:34.600
to reclaim first and
foremost, that beautiful,

00:18:34.600 --> 00:18:37.780
compelling essence of
the Christian message.

00:18:37.780 --> 00:18:42.060
- Rob had stepped into
a new freedom, I think,

00:18:42.060 --> 00:18:44.690
with Love Wins, which he was
gonna do the right thing.

00:18:44.690 --> 00:18:47.420
And that really, I
think, scared people.

00:18:47.420 --> 00:18:50.390
Are you, are you, are you
our, are you our pastor

00:18:50.390 --> 00:18:52.070
or are you, what is
this gonna do to us?

00:18:52.070 --> 00:18:53.445
What's it gonna
do to the budget?

00:18:53.445 --> 00:18:55.230
I mean, pretty
quickly Mars Hill had

00:18:55.230 --> 00:18:58.400
to make budget cuts
because of this book.

00:18:58.400 --> 00:19:00.520
But I think he was
like, no, this is what

00:19:00.520 --> 00:19:03.320
needs to be done and
he sort of stepped into

00:19:03.320 --> 00:19:04.810
the thing that I
think probably all

00:19:04.810 --> 00:19:06.430
people want to step
into themselves,

00:19:06.430 --> 00:19:08.952
which is find a deeper
sense of who they are.

00:19:08.952 --> 00:19:10.410
What do I really
think and believe?

00:19:10.410 --> 00:19:12.490
What am I willing to risk here?

00:19:12.490 --> 00:19:14.780
Instead of, how do
we keep this thing

00:19:14.780 --> 00:19:17.410
safe and protected
and everybody on board

00:19:17.410 --> 00:19:20.030
and kind of the ship is
going in this direction.

00:19:29.980 --> 00:19:36.330
- When I was a kid
I would ride my bike

00:19:36.330 --> 00:19:39.612
to the Meridian Mall
which, in Okemos, Michigan,

00:19:39.612 --> 00:19:41.320
which I think is the
farthest you can get

00:19:41.320 --> 00:19:43.620
from an ocean on the
face of the planet.

00:19:43.620 --> 00:19:46.780
And I would go to
the Meridian Mall

00:19:46.780 --> 00:19:48.520
and there was a
community news center.

00:19:48.520 --> 00:19:51.030
And in the back of the
community news center,

00:19:51.030 --> 00:19:53.220
which was like the bookstore,

00:19:53.220 --> 00:19:55.450
they had copies of
Surfer Magazine.

00:19:55.450 --> 00:20:00.540
And I would page
through Surfer Magazine.

00:20:00.540 --> 00:20:02.290
It was like piercing a veil.

00:20:02.290 --> 00:20:06.870
I mean, it was like, ohhh.

00:20:06.870 --> 00:20:10.860
There are people who paddle out
in the ocean and ride waves.

00:20:10.860 --> 00:20:14.930
And I would, and then I'd get
on my BMX bike and ride home.

00:20:14.930 --> 00:20:23.280
And so I was fully
sucked into the allure,

00:20:23.280 --> 00:20:24.700
thousands of miles
from an ocean.

00:20:28.630 --> 00:20:32.950
When you get in the ocean

00:20:32.950 --> 00:20:35.780
you can't make anything happen.

00:20:35.780 --> 00:20:38.197
You adjust to what it's doing.

00:20:38.197 --> 00:20:40.280
It's almost like you listen
with your whole being,

00:20:40.280 --> 00:20:42.170
or your whole body.

00:20:42.170 --> 00:20:45.900
And so much of the
modern world is

00:20:45.900 --> 00:20:52.360
about mastery and
grasping and manipulating.

00:20:52.360 --> 00:20:54.340
And when you enter
into the ocean

00:20:54.340 --> 00:20:57.740
you submit to
whatever it's doing.

00:20:57.740 --> 00:21:02.785
And there is
something about that

00:21:02.785 --> 00:21:04.160
that does something
to your soul.

00:21:04.160 --> 00:21:13.600
- Acclaimed author and
one of my best friends

00:21:13.600 --> 00:21:16.050
and a renowned heretic,
acclaimed author,

00:21:16.050 --> 00:21:19.200
(audience clapping)

00:21:19.200 --> 00:21:22.060
Robert Holmes Bell,
that's his real name.

00:21:22.060 --> 00:21:25.560
Robert Bell,
everybody, Rob Bell.

00:21:25.560 --> 00:21:27.960
I think Rob struck a chord with

00:21:27.960 --> 00:21:30.970
a lot of people like
me, specifically.

00:21:30.970 --> 00:21:33.690
Who lost their faith
or worse, were in some

00:21:33.690 --> 00:21:37.570
sort of lukewarm, you know,
interim position with God.

00:21:37.570 --> 00:21:40.350
That, not just
Christmas and Easter,

00:21:40.350 --> 00:21:42.770
but they were just kind
of inside, were like,

00:21:42.770 --> 00:21:44.700
ugh, I'd rather
not think about it.

00:21:44.700 --> 00:21:50.510
And then as Rob so perfectly
puts, we still felt an ache.

00:21:50.510 --> 00:21:52.490
I describe that ache
as what is this.

00:21:52.490 --> 00:21:54.410
I'm just like, what is this?

00:21:54.410 --> 00:21:55.920
And why is this?

00:21:55.920 --> 00:21:57.540
- But this is what
happened to me.

00:21:57.540 --> 00:22:02.630
Is I got trained in pastor
world and then got into that,

00:22:02.630 --> 00:22:05.780
like oh, you be
polite at all costs.

00:22:05.780 --> 00:22:07.990
And then stumbled in,
I had this epiphany

00:22:07.990 --> 00:22:10.990
that Jesus was Jewish,
which was, I know.

00:22:10.990 --> 00:22:11.490
(laughs)

00:22:11.490 --> 00:22:15.800
- You could only talk
to him for 15 minutes.

00:22:15.800 --> 00:22:18.410
That guy's attention
span was in the shitter.

00:22:18.410 --> 00:22:20.270
(all laughing)

00:22:20.270 --> 00:22:21.520
If you went long he'd be like,

00:22:21.520 --> 00:22:22.520
you know, it's been 15 minutes.

00:22:22.520 --> 00:22:23.140
- Right, right, right.

00:22:23.140 --> 00:22:25.100
- You know watches
haven't been invented yet.

00:22:25.100 --> 00:22:27.570
- Two points, a story
and you're outta there.

00:22:27.570 --> 00:22:29.768
But it was my emerging
in the Jewish church

00:22:29.768 --> 00:22:31.560
and realizing the church
that I came out of

00:22:31.560 --> 00:22:34.500
stood on the shoulders of
a much deeper tradition

00:22:34.500 --> 00:22:38.290
that was bloody, and dirty,
and sweaty, and sexy,

00:22:38.290 --> 00:22:41.680
and doubt, and anger, and
people cursing things,

00:22:41.680 --> 00:22:44.800
and throwing things and
it was this full-bodied,

00:22:44.800 --> 00:22:47.500
full-orbed experience and
wherever you were at it

00:22:47.500 --> 00:22:48.500
was okay.

00:22:48.500 --> 00:22:51.240
Because there was this
binary of good and bad,

00:22:51.240 --> 00:22:54.550
winners, losers, success,
failure and God was always

00:22:54.550 --> 00:22:56.450
on the one side and
you kind of didn't know

00:22:56.450 --> 00:22:58.450
what to do with all the
stuff on the other side.

00:22:58.450 --> 00:23:00.870
And when I stumbled
into oh, wait,

00:23:00.870 --> 00:23:03.410
no, no, if you go back farther.

00:23:03.410 --> 00:23:06.330
By the way, we're
radical, it means root,

00:23:06.330 --> 00:23:08.825
like a radish is a root
vegetable, the radical isn't

00:23:08.825 --> 00:23:10.700
the one who wandered
off into the deep weeds.

00:23:10.700 --> 00:23:12.700
The radical is the
one who went back

00:23:12.700 --> 00:23:15.720
to actual source
of the tradition.

00:23:15.720 --> 00:23:21.450
So, (audience laughing)

00:23:21.450 --> 00:23:22.410
- Fuckin' ay!

00:23:22.410 --> 00:23:24.570
(all laughing)

00:23:24.570 --> 00:23:27.010
There's nothing more Western
than turning the Bible

00:23:27.010 --> 00:23:31.730
or any book into a,
from a mysterious dance

00:23:31.730 --> 00:23:34.280
and a play and something
to wrestle with

00:23:34.280 --> 00:23:37.050
and get messy with
and just turning it

00:23:37.050 --> 00:23:39.910
into a book of do's and don'ts.

00:23:39.910 --> 00:23:42.230
It's like don't have
sex before marriage.

00:23:42.230 --> 00:23:44.690
Don't swear, don't
drink, don't smoke,

00:23:44.690 --> 00:23:47.510
don't do drugs,
love the Red Sox.

00:23:47.510 --> 00:23:50.520
Like, it's just, what
the fuck happened?

00:23:50.520 --> 00:23:51.950
You know what I mean?

00:23:51.950 --> 00:23:55.458
I know that me being me,
right now I'm performing,

00:23:55.458 --> 00:23:57.500
just like I would even if
the camera wasn't here.

00:23:57.500 --> 00:23:59.810
If you just came over my
house I would be performing.

00:23:59.810 --> 00:24:02.780
I don't sit this way
when no one's here.

00:24:02.780 --> 00:24:04.030
I don't put on pants.

00:24:04.030 --> 00:24:05.090
You know what I'm saying?

00:24:05.090 --> 00:24:06.215
So there's this performance

00:24:06.215 --> 00:24:09.060
and there's this
loneliness inside.

00:24:09.060 --> 00:24:13.130
It's not a bad loneliness,
it's just kind of a private,

00:24:13.130 --> 00:24:16.870
it's a private world
of swirls and it's dark

00:24:16.870 --> 00:24:20.380
and there's purples and
greens and some strange memory

00:24:20.380 --> 00:24:24.820
and it's very isolating
to feel in there.

00:24:24.820 --> 00:24:27.660
So we all know what
it's like to grapple

00:24:27.660 --> 00:24:30.050
with mystery because
we're dealing with that.

00:24:30.050 --> 00:24:32.630
We're creating
metaphors all day.

00:24:32.630 --> 00:24:34.860
You're just like, singing
in the shower is really

00:24:34.860 --> 00:24:38.050
just a metaphor for how
you're feeling inside.

00:24:38.050 --> 00:24:40.440
So we know that there are things

00:24:40.440 --> 00:24:42.590
that can't be put into words.

00:24:42.590 --> 00:24:45.100
Sometimes language fails
how you're feeling.

00:24:45.100 --> 00:24:47.197
Or sometimes just the
top emotion wins out.

00:24:47.197 --> 00:24:49.280
Like, I'm angry, when
really you're 50,000 things.

00:24:49.280 --> 00:24:54.610
And then religion comes along
and it's just black and white.

00:24:54.610 --> 00:24:57.380
And we go, but I'm
not black and white.

00:24:57.380 --> 00:24:58.910
I'm mysterious.

00:24:58.910 --> 00:25:00.670
I'm dark and light.

00:25:00.670 --> 00:25:03.150
And then occasionally thinks,
look at this motherfucker.

00:25:03.150 --> 00:25:04.210
You know what I'm saying?

00:25:04.210 --> 00:25:08.670
We know everything is
everything, it's all in there.

00:25:08.670 --> 00:25:13.740
And then the most interesting,
infinite topic, God,

00:25:13.740 --> 00:25:18.600
just becomes two paint
colors at Sherwin-Williams?

00:25:18.600 --> 00:25:20.100
It's either this
one or, do you want

00:25:20.100 --> 00:25:22.720
eggshell or do you want khaki?

00:25:22.720 --> 00:25:23.560
How did that happen?

00:25:23.560 --> 00:25:28.850
- For a lot of people
religion is what you believe.

00:25:28.850 --> 00:25:31.370
It's a set of views
about the world,

00:25:31.370 --> 00:25:33.990
about the self, about God.

00:25:33.990 --> 00:25:36.720
And I think actually
that what we see

00:25:36.720 --> 00:25:39.640
in the Bible is more
about the how of belief.

00:25:39.640 --> 00:25:41.690
How does your belief function?

00:25:41.690 --> 00:25:43.640
Does your belief function
to make you a more

00:25:43.640 --> 00:25:47.030
beautiful person,
helping your neighbor?

00:25:47.030 --> 00:25:52.050
Or do your beliefs protect
you from other people?

00:25:52.050 --> 00:25:53.890
Do they isolate
you from the other?

00:25:53.890 --> 00:25:55.730
- Thank you, Michael.

00:26:01.020 --> 00:26:01.600
- [Lady] Hi.

00:26:01.600 --> 00:26:02.010
- [Rob] Hi.

00:26:02.010 --> 00:26:02.700
- [Lady] How are you?

00:26:02.700 --> 00:26:03.200
- Good.

00:26:06.710 --> 00:26:08.120
Oh, that is awesome.

00:26:08.120 --> 00:26:09.993
Look at that, Violet.

00:26:09.993 --> 00:26:10.910
That's pretty awesome.

00:26:14.940 --> 00:26:16.953
Yeah, look at that.

00:26:16.953 --> 00:26:17.620
Good times, huh?

00:26:17.620 --> 00:26:20.685
- [Lady] The total is
like 755, so we're at

00:26:20.685 --> 00:26:22.560
about 600 now, so it's
gonna be a full house.

00:26:22.560 --> 00:26:23.480
- [Rob] That's amazing.

00:26:23.480 --> 00:26:24.563
- [Lady] Which is awesome.

00:26:24.563 --> 00:26:31.530
- [Rob] It never gets
old, 25 years in.

00:26:31.530 --> 00:26:32.030
And...

00:26:32.030 --> 00:26:34.040
- [Interviewer] You still
feel nervous before a show?

00:26:34.040 --> 00:26:34.540
(Rob sighs)

00:26:34.540 --> 00:26:38.130
- And it's like no
matter how many times

00:26:38.130 --> 00:26:39.838
you work on it
you're still gonna go

00:26:39.838 --> 00:26:41.380
out there and we'll
see what happens.

00:26:46.480 --> 00:26:56.870
(audience clapping)

00:26:56.870 --> 00:27:10.170
Yes, that's,

00:27:10.170 --> 00:27:13.410
I've waited my whole
life to say this,

00:27:13.410 --> 00:27:14.520
good evening, Knoxville.

00:27:14.520 --> 00:27:19.460
(audience cheering)

00:27:19.460 --> 00:27:19.983
Yes!

00:27:19.983 --> 00:27:21.900
And I especially want
to speak to those of you

00:27:21.900 --> 00:27:24.900
who were dragged
here by a friend.

00:27:24.900 --> 00:27:27.630
And you just have this
low-grade unease like,

00:27:27.630 --> 00:27:30.460
what have I gotten myself into?

00:27:30.460 --> 00:27:34.210
And then your friend was
like, oh, it's gonna be fine.

00:27:34.210 --> 00:27:35.510
In a previous life he was a

00:27:35.510 --> 00:27:37.908
megachurch pastor
in the Midwest.

00:27:37.908 --> 00:27:38.700
(audience laughing)

00:27:38.700 --> 00:27:40.170
And you're like, now
I do believe in hell.

00:27:40.170 --> 00:27:41.000
(audience laughing)

00:27:41.000 --> 00:27:43.660
So, a while ago I had this idea.

00:27:43.660 --> 00:27:47.640
I was like, I should
go to the Bible belt

00:27:47.640 --> 00:27:48.860
and talk about the Bible.

00:27:48.860 --> 00:27:50.670
(audience cheering)

00:27:50.670 --> 00:27:56.490
And it like, it made me
smile and I would laugh

00:27:56.490 --> 00:27:59.670
to myself thinking, that's
my idea of a good time.

00:27:59.670 --> 00:28:01.932
(audience laughing)

00:28:01.932 --> 00:28:04.140
Well, first off, the
philosopher Dallas Willard said,

00:28:04.140 --> 00:28:07.970
familiarity breeds unfamiliarity

00:28:07.970 --> 00:28:11.130
and unfamiliarity
can breed contempt.

00:28:11.130 --> 00:28:15.320
Something is so familiar
and close and you've

00:28:15.320 --> 00:28:17.400
been around it for
so long that it can

00:28:17.400 --> 00:28:19.960
oddly become
unfamiliar and that can

00:28:19.960 --> 00:28:23.400
leave you open to
downright contempt.

00:28:23.400 --> 00:28:26.840
And at a larger
communal level based on

00:28:26.840 --> 00:28:29.900
our sacred life together
even as a tribe,

00:28:29.900 --> 00:28:32.840
as humans, as a
nation, how you read

00:28:32.840 --> 00:28:35.180
the Bible has
serious implications

00:28:35.180 --> 00:28:37.370
for the kind of
world we're creating.

00:28:37.370 --> 00:28:40.040
And we even learned
recently that bad readings

00:28:40.040 --> 00:28:42.490
of the Bible can actually
get people elected.

00:28:42.490 --> 00:28:46.900
(audience laughing)

00:28:46.900 --> 00:28:49.780
It's almost like there was
this American narrative

00:28:49.780 --> 00:28:53.830
that got spun about who
we are in the world.

00:28:53.830 --> 00:28:55.415
And actually, for
Americans, there's a

00:28:55.415 --> 00:28:57.040
deep-seated sense
that there's a chance

00:28:57.040 --> 00:28:59.680
that our tribe and the
way that we move in

00:28:59.680 --> 00:29:03.250
the world actually
antagonizes other tribes.

00:29:03.250 --> 00:29:07.470
And this, just conquer and
crush everybody in your path,

00:29:07.470 --> 00:29:09.715
it's actually making
everybody miserable.

00:29:09.715 --> 00:29:11.090
I think a lot of
people are like,

00:29:11.090 --> 00:29:14.980
wait, there's
something about this,

00:29:14.980 --> 00:29:16.810
really destructive,
it has an underbelly.

00:29:16.810 --> 00:29:18.815
- [Interviewer] You
say that, but yet,

00:29:18.815 --> 00:29:20.190
we're in this part
of the country

00:29:20.190 --> 00:29:22.630
where white
evangelicals dominate.

00:29:22.630 --> 00:29:24.970
Why do you think so
many evangelicals,

00:29:24.970 --> 00:29:27.550
white evangelicals,
went for Trump?

00:29:27.550 --> 00:29:28.970
- Fear and power.

00:29:38.890 --> 00:29:52.660
(piano music)

00:29:52.660 --> 00:29:56.780
The Bible was written by a
minority group of people.

00:29:56.780 --> 00:29:59.560
They are conquered
Assyrians, Persians,

00:29:59.560 --> 00:30:02.070
at one point the
Babylonians conquer them.

00:30:02.070 --> 00:30:04.720
And then by the
time of Jesus and

00:30:04.720 --> 00:30:06.440
the New Testament
it's the Romans.

00:30:06.440 --> 00:30:09.270
They've been conquered
by one military

00:30:09.270 --> 00:30:10.730
superpower after another.

00:30:10.730 --> 00:30:13.110
They have been on
the receiving end of

00:30:13.110 --> 00:30:18.170
a horrific amount of brutal
violence and oppression.

00:30:18.170 --> 00:30:21.570
So they have very
strong opinions

00:30:21.570 --> 00:30:24.470
about wealth,
weapons and drones.

00:30:24.470 --> 00:30:27.560
(audience laughing)

00:30:27.560 --> 00:30:33.040
So if you read this ancient
library as a citizen

00:30:33.040 --> 00:30:35.960
of the most powerful
military superpower

00:30:35.960 --> 00:30:39.250
human civilization
has ever created.

00:30:39.250 --> 00:30:40.830
We're 4% of the
world's population,

00:30:40.830 --> 00:30:43.530
we have about 43%
of its weapons.

00:30:43.530 --> 00:30:45.380
We're 4% of the
world's population,

00:30:45.380 --> 00:30:47.890
we have about 40% of its wealth.

00:30:47.890 --> 00:30:50.500
How many military bases does
Russia have outside of Russia?

00:30:50.500 --> 00:30:51.170
Eight.

00:30:51.170 --> 00:30:53.360
France, how many military
bases outside of France?

00:30:53.360 --> 00:30:53.893
Seven.

00:30:53.893 --> 00:30:56.310
Great Britain, how many military
bases outside of England?

00:30:56.310 --> 00:30:56.868
Six.

00:30:56.868 --> 00:30:58.410
How many military
bases does the U.S.

00:30:58.410 --> 00:31:00.330
have outside of the U.S?

00:31:00.330 --> 00:31:05.900
660, and actually most estimates
say it's closer to 800.

00:31:05.900 --> 00:31:12.030
Last year our government
dropped 26,000 bombs.

00:31:12.030 --> 00:31:14.310
Last year the Pentagon spent

00:31:14.310 --> 00:31:17.870
$660 million dollars
on advertising.

00:31:17.870 --> 00:31:18.900
Of whose money?

00:31:21.410 --> 00:31:23.420
Uh, yours, yeah one guy, ours.

00:31:23.420 --> 00:31:24.400
Not a trick question.

00:31:24.400 --> 00:31:26.460
(audience laughing)

00:31:26.460 --> 00:31:27.650
Keep up, Atlanta, let's go.

00:31:27.650 --> 00:31:28.650
(audience laughing)

00:31:28.650 --> 00:31:30.480
Yeah, it's like on
the test, it's like

00:31:30.480 --> 00:31:33.490
one oval to fill in with
a pencil right there.

00:31:33.490 --> 00:31:36.060
Ours.

00:31:36.060 --> 00:31:40.830
This system that we're
a part of is totally

00:31:40.830 --> 00:31:44.750
unprecedented in the
history of the universe.

00:31:44.750 --> 00:31:48.410
So there is a chance as
a citizen of the most

00:31:48.410 --> 00:31:52.960
powerful military machine
the world has ever seen,

00:31:52.960 --> 00:31:55.890
that in reading a
book by people who

00:31:55.890 --> 00:31:59.020
are deeply suspicious
of what happens

00:31:59.020 --> 00:32:01.680
when empire and
weapons come together,

00:32:01.680 --> 00:32:05.720
there's a chance you might miss
some of its central themes.

00:32:05.720 --> 00:32:07.740
Because when the writer
of the Psalms says,

00:32:07.740 --> 00:32:15.235
some trust in chariots,
but we trust in God,

00:32:15.235 --> 00:32:16.610
we're the ones
with the chariots.

00:32:21.180 --> 00:32:22.710
Lots of people
grew up in churches

00:32:22.710 --> 00:32:25.220
that had an American
flag on the stage

00:32:25.220 --> 00:32:27.490
and had 4th of July services.

00:32:27.490 --> 00:32:33.520
And America, the flag and the
Bible were like holding hands.

00:32:33.520 --> 00:32:35.910
But if you read
the Bible honestly,

00:32:35.910 --> 00:32:41.040
the Bible holds the
flag accountable.

00:32:41.040 --> 00:32:42.800
It has no interest
in holding hands.

00:32:42.800 --> 00:32:45.620
It speaks truth to the
flag, because the flag

00:32:45.620 --> 00:32:47.410
can be beautiful
and the flag can

00:32:47.410 --> 00:32:50.060
also be deeply, deeply corrupt.

00:32:50.060 --> 00:32:51.760
And the flag can
be life-giving and

00:32:51.760 --> 00:32:54.350
the flag can also
be very destructive.

00:32:54.350 --> 00:32:58.460
- [Man] This country
was not built

00:32:58.460 --> 00:33:01.220
for atheists nor by atheists.

00:33:01.220 --> 00:33:03.260
It was built by Christian people

00:33:03.260 --> 00:33:05.030
who believed in the word of God.

00:33:05.030 --> 00:33:08.760
- America was set
apart in a special way.

00:33:08.760 --> 00:33:10.030
- What church do you go to?

00:33:10.030 --> 00:33:11.310
What is your belief system?

00:33:11.310 --> 00:33:13.900
- Go to a Bible
believing church.

00:33:13.900 --> 00:33:17.760
- Free market principles,
constitutional liberties

00:33:17.760 --> 00:33:21.250
and the Judeo-Christian values
that built this great nation.

00:33:21.250 --> 00:33:24.080
- [Man] I'm a Christian, a
conservative and a Republican.

00:33:24.080 --> 00:33:26.780
- My second favorite
book of all time.

00:33:26.780 --> 00:33:28.920
What's my first favorite book?

00:33:28.920 --> 00:33:30.210
The Bible!

00:33:30.210 --> 00:33:32.775
You know I'm leading
with the evangelicals.

00:33:32.775 --> 00:33:33.650
I'm a good Christian.

00:33:33.650 --> 00:33:37.760
- [Man] And will help us
economically and spiritually.

00:33:37.760 --> 00:33:39.330
So today we pray
for Donald Trump.

00:33:39.330 --> 00:33:40.310
- [Crowd] Yes.

00:33:40.310 --> 00:33:42.270
- I believe it was God.

00:33:48.150 --> 00:33:48.970
(crowd cheering)

00:33:48.970 --> 00:33:51.200
God showed up.

00:33:51.200 --> 00:33:53.790
He answered the
prayers of hundreds

00:33:53.790 --> 00:33:56.553
of thousands of people
across this land

00:33:56.553 --> 00:33:58.220
that have been praying
for this country.

00:33:58.220 --> 00:34:01.410
- From this day forward,

00:34:01.410 --> 00:34:07.770
it's going to be
only America first.

00:34:07.770 --> 00:34:14.040
And yes, together we will
make America great again!

00:34:14.040 --> 00:34:19.320
Thank you, God bless you
and God bless America!

00:34:19.320 --> 00:34:24.130
- We have lived as
a tribal culture

00:34:24.130 --> 00:34:28.250
for so many generations
where the highest goal is

00:34:28.250 --> 00:34:30.550
to protect and
preserve your tribe.

00:34:30.550 --> 00:34:33.810
But that won't work
in the world as it is.

00:34:33.810 --> 00:34:37.710
We will have to move to
some larger awareness

00:34:37.710 --> 00:34:41.230
that we are all
of the same tribe.

00:34:41.230 --> 00:34:44.699
And so all of the
nationalisms and all of

00:34:44.699 --> 00:34:49.380
the warped patriotism will
have to be transcended

00:34:49.380 --> 00:34:51.590
by an awareness that
we have one planet.

00:34:51.590 --> 00:34:55.360
And in some ways all
of the latest research

00:34:55.360 --> 00:34:59.170
that we are now realizing
is way more grave

00:34:59.170 --> 00:35:02.840
than anybody realized, which
is that we as human beings,

00:35:02.840 --> 00:35:08.020
and our care for this
planet, we are not

00:35:08.020 --> 00:35:10.220
living here in a
sustainable way.

00:35:10.220 --> 00:35:13.640
And that pain of we
have not taken care of

00:35:13.640 --> 00:35:17.860
the one planet we have
it will either break us

00:35:17.860 --> 00:35:20.610
and we will all
move forward into

00:35:20.610 --> 00:35:22.390
greater consciousness
and awareness

00:35:22.390 --> 00:35:25.432
of each other and the
earth, or we will regress.

00:35:25.432 --> 00:35:27.515
At some level this is
connected with our survival.

00:35:34.000 --> 00:35:38.740
We're in a sound recording booth

00:35:38.740 --> 00:35:42.170
and I'm recording the audio book

00:35:42.170 --> 00:35:43.910
for my book, What is the Bible?

00:35:43.910 --> 00:35:46.380
And this is my
attempt to help people

00:35:46.380 --> 00:35:49.020
read the Bible in
a much better way.

00:35:49.020 --> 00:35:51.200
Because my observation
would be people either

00:35:51.200 --> 00:35:53.360
ignore the Bible or
they read it with,

00:35:53.360 --> 00:35:55.773
through this lens of kind
of stilted literalism

00:35:55.773 --> 00:35:57.190
that sucks all the
life out of it.

00:35:57.190 --> 00:36:02.350
This is subversive, political
poetry among other things.

00:36:02.350 --> 00:36:06.170
And if you read it as
you should read it,

00:36:06.170 --> 00:36:08.220
it all of a sudden becomes
incredibly dangerous

00:36:08.220 --> 00:36:11.383
and beautiful and
provocative and timely.

00:36:11.383 --> 00:36:13.800
- [Technician] Alright we're
gonna get some levels on you.

00:36:16.900 --> 00:36:18.240
What I'd like you to do is just,

00:36:18.240 --> 00:36:21.810
just for starters, go to
the beginning of chapter 1.

00:36:21.810 --> 00:36:25.340
We're just gonna read a
little bit just to make sure

00:36:25.340 --> 00:36:27.320
we got some good
levels with you.

00:36:27.320 --> 00:36:31.940
- Now, the book opens with
a quote from the great poet

00:36:31.940 --> 00:36:35.020
Rainer Rilke and the
quote goes like this.

00:36:35.020 --> 00:36:38.680
Try to love the
questions themselves.

00:36:38.680 --> 00:36:41.110
Like locked rooms and like books

00:36:41.110 --> 00:36:43.490
that are written in a
very foreign tongue.

00:36:43.490 --> 00:36:44.940
- We're so, so
glad to be able to

00:36:44.940 --> 00:36:46.680
offer this opportunity to you.

00:36:46.680 --> 00:36:48.400
Rob has not visited
us before now

00:36:48.400 --> 00:36:49.875
and we're thrilled
that he is here.

00:36:49.875 --> 00:36:51.250
You know, as an
author of course,

00:36:51.250 --> 00:36:52.667
and from his
broadcasts and he has

00:36:52.667 --> 00:36:54.500
all kinds of interesting
things to tell you.

00:36:54.500 --> 00:36:56.410
So, please join me in
welcoming Rob Bell.

00:36:56.410 --> 00:36:57.210
(audience clapping)

00:36:57.210 --> 00:37:12.157
- A lot of books about the
Bible are books of summary.

00:37:12.157 --> 00:37:13.990
Trying to boil it down,
here's what it says.

00:37:13.990 --> 00:37:16.300
This is not a book about
trying to summarize it.

00:37:16.300 --> 00:37:18.430
It's the other, I'm going
the other direction.

00:37:18.430 --> 00:37:19.722
I'm not trying to summarize it.

00:37:19.722 --> 00:37:20.840
I'm trying to open it up.

00:37:20.840 --> 00:37:23.440
I'm trying to make
it big and wide

00:37:23.440 --> 00:37:26.170
and read it with you
so that maybe then,

00:37:26.170 --> 00:37:29.070
you can read it
too, in new ways.

00:37:29.070 --> 00:37:30.840
We are crying out
to be connected

00:37:30.840 --> 00:37:34.283
with something
thousands of years old.

00:37:34.283 --> 00:37:36.200
And all the questions
we're all wrestling with

00:37:36.200 --> 00:37:38.680
people were wrestling with
thousands of years ago.

00:37:38.680 --> 00:37:41.638
And just that alone
can do something.

00:37:41.638 --> 00:37:43.180
We think we're
looking for solutions,

00:37:43.180 --> 00:37:46.590
but first off we're
looking for solidarity.

00:37:46.590 --> 00:37:47.090
(knocking)

00:37:47.090 --> 00:37:50.097
- [Christine] Hello.

00:37:50.097 --> 00:37:50.680
- [Rob] Hello.

00:37:50.680 --> 00:37:51.680
- [Christine] He's here!

00:37:51.680 --> 00:37:52.418
- [Rob] Yes!

00:37:52.418 --> 00:37:53.960
- [Christine] We've
prepared for you.

00:37:53.960 --> 00:37:54.470
- [Rob] Hi.

00:37:54.470 --> 00:37:55.110
- [Christine] Hi!

00:37:55.110 --> 00:37:56.110
- [Rob] Your first name?

00:37:56.110 --> 00:37:57.560
- [Christine] Christine.

00:37:57.560 --> 00:37:58.430
- [Rob] Christine.

00:37:58.430 --> 00:37:59.430
Hi, I've met you before.

00:37:59.430 --> 00:37:59.930
- Hi!

00:37:59.930 --> 00:38:00.450
It's Sarah.

00:38:00.450 --> 00:38:02.010
- Sarah, Christine,
good to see you.

00:38:02.010 --> 00:38:03.700
- [Man] What's up?

00:38:03.700 --> 00:38:04.390
- [Rob] Come on.

00:38:04.390 --> 00:38:05.580
- You're dressed man,
dressed for presence.

00:38:05.580 --> 00:38:06.247
- [Rob] For you.

00:38:06.247 --> 00:38:07.287
- You're lookin' sharp!

00:38:07.287 --> 00:38:07.870
- How are you?

00:38:07.870 --> 00:38:09.240
Looking forward to seeing you.

00:38:09.240 --> 00:38:10.115
Thanks for having me.

00:38:10.115 --> 00:38:17.460
- [Man] Rob Bell in the house.

00:38:17.460 --> 00:38:17.960
- Nice.

00:38:17.960 --> 00:38:22.560
- [Man] This is gonna be big.

00:38:22.560 --> 00:38:24.357
- [Photographer] And
a couple fun ones.

00:38:24.357 --> 00:38:24.940
- What's that?

00:38:24.940 --> 00:38:25.523
What, come on.

00:38:25.523 --> 00:38:26.200
(all laughing)

00:38:26.200 --> 00:38:27.700
- So many different
points of views,

00:38:27.700 --> 00:38:30.910
opinions, judgments out
there that part of me

00:38:30.910 --> 00:38:33.190
sometimes is just like,
screw the Bible, you know?

00:38:33.190 --> 00:38:34.060
- Absolutely, sure.

00:38:34.060 --> 00:38:35.227
- You know, thought process.

00:38:35.227 --> 00:38:37.090
It's kind of like
screw this because

00:38:37.090 --> 00:38:39.210
it's very contradictory
and the things it says.

00:38:39.210 --> 00:38:41.000
One person says something
different than someone else.

00:38:41.000 --> 00:38:42.540
Someone said that
God said something

00:38:42.540 --> 00:38:44.040
and how do we know
that's the truth?

00:38:44.040 --> 00:38:47.880
- Yeah, and I begin
by saying you're right

00:38:47.880 --> 00:38:50.190
the Bible has caused
so much damage.

00:38:50.190 --> 00:38:52.100
In many ways it's
often been an agent

00:38:52.100 --> 00:38:54.380
of dragging
everything backwards.

00:38:54.380 --> 00:38:55.590
And it hasn't participated in

00:38:55.590 --> 00:38:58.310
the ongoing evolution
of humanity.

00:38:58.310 --> 00:39:00.390
It's been a voice for primitive,

00:39:00.390 --> 00:39:03.180
outdated, violent,
barbaric forces.

00:39:03.180 --> 00:39:05.460
I mean, even in our
culture right now.

00:39:05.460 --> 00:39:08.990
So, I'm aware that in
2017 to put out a book

00:39:08.990 --> 00:39:12.720
with the word Bible
in it, for many people

00:39:12.720 --> 00:39:14.980
just the word is like,
seriously, come on.

00:39:14.980 --> 00:39:16.040
- [Interviewer] Right?

00:39:16.040 --> 00:39:18.340
- And actually I
think part of my work

00:39:18.340 --> 00:39:21.892
has been, to me,
that's an injustice.

00:39:21.892 --> 00:39:23.600
And part of it is
showing people what you

00:39:23.600 --> 00:39:25.750
were told about you
were told wrong.

00:39:25.750 --> 00:39:28.740
And most people aren't
reading it well.

00:39:28.740 --> 00:39:31.460
From the hardcore
right wing religious

00:39:31.460 --> 00:39:34.820
to the hardcore
against the Bible,

00:39:34.820 --> 00:39:37.620
most of them are reading
it as fundamentalists.

00:39:37.620 --> 00:39:43.530
(audience clapping)

00:39:43.530 --> 00:39:56.960
- [Woman] Yeah!

00:39:56.960 --> 00:39:58.440
- That's fantastic.

00:40:04.830 --> 00:40:09.550
If you're a slave in
Egypt and you're owned

00:40:09.550 --> 00:40:13.840
by Pharaoh and Pharaoh
is believed to be a god

00:40:13.840 --> 00:40:17.740
and the son of Pharaoh is
believed to be the son of God,

00:40:17.740 --> 00:40:22.260
then in Egypt your question
if you're a slave is;

00:40:22.260 --> 00:40:26.830
are the gods okay
with this setup?

00:40:26.830 --> 00:40:31.010
And the answer in
Egypt was, yeah.

00:40:31.010 --> 00:40:35.050
The gods are fine with you
being a slave and being owned.

00:40:35.050 --> 00:40:38.750
In fact, the gods
ordered and ordained

00:40:38.750 --> 00:40:43.000
this relationship
where you are a slave.

00:40:43.000 --> 00:40:47.470
This Hebrew story
comes in and says,

00:40:47.470 --> 00:40:53.200
oh, this Hebrew God hears
the cry of the oppressed.

00:40:53.200 --> 00:40:57.285
Is not okay with this
relationship and get ready

00:40:57.285 --> 00:40:59.410
because tomorrow is not
gonna be a repeat of today.

00:40:59.410 --> 00:41:01.060
There's gonna be a disruption

00:41:01.060 --> 00:41:03.270
and you're going
to be liberated.

00:41:03.270 --> 00:41:07.320
So this Exodus story
said to every person

00:41:07.320 --> 00:41:11.180
who's ever been bullied,
to everyone who's ever

00:41:11.180 --> 00:41:15.570
had a boss that was a small
man trying to do a big job.

00:41:15.570 --> 00:41:17.070
Anybody know what
I'm talking about?

00:41:17.070 --> 00:41:20.910
Anybody who's ever had the boot
of the empire on their neck.

00:41:20.910 --> 00:41:23.150
The Exodus story was
about liberation,

00:41:23.150 --> 00:41:26.370
but it was a warning
to anybody in power

00:41:26.370 --> 00:41:29.000
if you misuse your
power to oppress

00:41:29.000 --> 00:41:32.090
or harm others your
power is fragile

00:41:32.090 --> 00:41:34.780
and may be subverted by
the God of the underdog.

00:41:34.780 --> 00:41:36.600
(audience laughing)

00:41:36.600 --> 00:41:37.850
This is turning into a sermon.

00:41:37.850 --> 00:41:41.370
(audience laughing)

00:41:41.370 --> 00:41:43.500
In some places they'd
be waving white hankies,

00:41:43.500 --> 00:41:45.710
but this is a university
campus so it's like,

00:41:45.710 --> 00:41:47.470
I'll have to blog
about that later.

00:41:47.470 --> 00:41:50.240
(audience laughing)

00:41:50.240 --> 00:41:54.750
I'll discuss that
with my colleagues.

00:41:54.750 --> 00:41:56.730
So then this story
eventually ends up

00:41:56.730 --> 00:42:00.050
in Jerusalem and we're
introduced to King Solomon

00:42:00.050 --> 00:42:03.130
who is David's son,
he's the son of David.

00:42:03.130 --> 00:42:06.040
And we're told that King
Solomon is wealthy and wise.

00:42:06.040 --> 00:42:09.320
We're told that King
Solomon is building gardens.

00:42:09.320 --> 00:42:11.380
He's building a palace
and then we're told

00:42:11.380 --> 00:42:18.520
that King Solomon builds
a temple to honor God.

00:42:18.520 --> 00:42:19.980
And then the narrator says,

00:42:19.980 --> 00:42:24.950
and he was building the
temple using slave labor.

00:42:28.190 --> 00:42:32.460
Solomon is building a
temple to honor the God

00:42:32.460 --> 00:42:36.993
who liberates people from
enslavement using slaves.

00:42:39.540 --> 00:42:42.320
It would be like
Solomon has forgot

00:42:42.320 --> 00:42:44.200
the stories of his people.

00:42:44.200 --> 00:42:45.710
It would be like
imagine if there

00:42:45.710 --> 00:42:48.820
was a nation of immigrants...

00:42:48.820 --> 00:42:51.312
(audience laughing)

00:42:51.312 --> 00:42:52.520
Thank you, you've been great.

00:42:55.128 --> 00:42:55.920
(audience laughing)

00:42:55.920 --> 00:42:56.670
(crowd chattering)

00:42:56.670 --> 00:42:58.420
Nice to meet you,
thank you for coming.

00:42:58.420 --> 00:42:58.740
Hi.

00:42:58.740 --> 00:42:59.510
- [Jessica] Jessica.

00:42:59.510 --> 00:43:00.740
- [Rob] Hi Jessica, how are you?

00:43:00.740 --> 00:43:02.740
- [Jessica] Good, thanks
for coming and talking.

00:43:02.740 --> 00:43:03.357
- I loved it.

00:43:03.357 --> 00:43:04.690
Thank you, thanks for having me.

00:43:04.690 --> 00:43:05.190
- Thank you so much.

00:43:05.190 --> 00:43:06.400
- We had fun, didn't we?

00:43:06.400 --> 00:43:12.137
- [Interviewer] When
typically, does faith,

00:43:12.137 --> 00:43:13.470
or spirituality, or some kind of

00:43:13.470 --> 00:43:15.720
search enter someone's life?

00:43:15.720 --> 00:43:19.200
I'm kind of curious,
who are the people

00:43:19.200 --> 00:43:21.070
that seek out the work you do?

00:43:21.070 --> 00:43:22.890
- Oh, yeah.

00:43:22.890 --> 00:43:25.030
Well, I begin with the
assumption that everybody's

00:43:25.030 --> 00:43:28.740
always searching,
everything is a search,

00:43:28.740 --> 00:43:30.830
for that which might
actually satisfy.

00:43:30.830 --> 00:43:32.700
So, even the idea of religious

00:43:32.700 --> 00:43:34.790
and non-religious people,
I'm like, come on.

00:43:34.790 --> 00:43:37.380
Come on, it's all just different

00:43:37.380 --> 00:43:44.300
expressions of the
same thing which is,

00:43:44.300 --> 00:43:46.330
who am I and what
am I doing here?

00:43:46.330 --> 00:43:48.950
To me, there is the
human experience

00:43:48.950 --> 00:43:51.620
and it cuts across
and in some ways

00:43:51.620 --> 00:43:56.080
what I've tried to do is park.

00:43:56.080 --> 00:43:58.000
I don't even know if
I've tried to do it.

00:43:58.000 --> 00:44:02.220
I've just always
wanted to be talking to

00:44:02.220 --> 00:44:04.420
the place in people
that's in everybody.

00:44:04.420 --> 00:44:05.650
Do you know what I mean?

00:44:05.650 --> 00:44:08.090
Because people will often ask,

00:44:08.090 --> 00:44:10.540
people will often be
like, well, who's it for?

00:44:10.540 --> 00:44:12.780
And I've never,
ever had an answer

00:44:12.780 --> 00:44:16.910
other than people, humans,

00:44:16.910 --> 00:44:18.600
featherless bipeds.

00:44:18.600 --> 00:44:20.140
(laughs)

00:44:20.140 --> 00:44:24.170
Because I start there with
the universal human longing.

00:44:27.340 --> 00:44:32.410
It's as much about the
absence of the divine

00:44:32.410 --> 00:44:36.620
as it is about the
presence of the divine.

00:44:36.620 --> 00:44:38.118
Jesus on the cross,
my God, my God,

00:44:38.118 --> 00:44:39.160
why have you forsaken me?

00:44:39.160 --> 00:44:41.737
This is the day that
God becomes an atheist.

00:44:41.737 --> 00:44:42.320
How you doin'?

00:44:42.320 --> 00:44:42.862
I'm that one.

00:44:42.862 --> 00:44:43.980
(audience laughing)

00:44:43.980 --> 00:44:46.240
Some of you have Apple
rainbow death wheel right now.

00:44:46.240 --> 00:44:47.948
You're like wait,
wait, wait, wait, wait.

00:44:47.948 --> 00:44:51.200
Yeah, yeah, the Bible
is as much praise

00:44:51.200 --> 00:44:54.310
and honor and certainty
as it is uncertainty,

00:44:54.310 --> 00:44:56.625
dark night of the soul and
why do you hide your face

00:44:56.625 --> 00:44:58.000
and how could this
have happened?

00:44:58.000 --> 00:45:00.030
There's a collection of
poems called the Lamentations

00:45:00.030 --> 00:45:02.210
and the word lamentations
comes from a Hebrew word.

00:45:02.210 --> 00:45:06.090
And the Hebrew word
translates literally, how?

00:45:06.090 --> 00:45:09.220
How this cancer?

00:45:09.220 --> 00:45:10.650
How this oppression?

00:45:10.650 --> 00:45:12.180
How this slavery?

00:45:12.180 --> 00:45:13.650
How this divorce?

00:45:13.650 --> 00:45:15.090
How?

00:45:15.090 --> 00:45:17.592
It's about the
questions that you ask

00:45:17.592 --> 00:45:19.050
when you are
convinced that there's

00:45:19.050 --> 00:45:22.370
nobody running
the show upstairs.

00:45:22.370 --> 00:45:24.110
And so what I noticed
is how many times

00:45:24.110 --> 00:45:27.490
in our culture like, the
debate is the atheist

00:45:27.490 --> 00:45:30.620
versus the believer
and they duke it out.

00:45:30.620 --> 00:45:35.850
When, in fact, denial
and affirmation are both

00:45:35.850 --> 00:45:39.020
very real responses to
the struggles of life.

00:45:39.020 --> 00:45:40.430
They're not in opposition.

00:45:40.430 --> 00:45:43.300
They're dimensions of
what it means to be alive.

00:45:43.300 --> 00:45:47.990
- [Interviewer] Why do we
need the Bible still today?

00:45:47.990 --> 00:45:49.723
If we feel like logic, science,

00:45:49.723 --> 00:45:51.140
we have all of
these great things.

00:45:51.140 --> 00:45:52.473
We're in a comfortable position.

00:45:52.473 --> 00:45:54.790
Why do we still need the Bible?

00:45:54.790 --> 00:45:56.930
- The questions that we
are asking right now.

00:45:56.930 --> 00:45:59.055
Why did a million people
kill themselves last year?

00:46:01.367 --> 00:46:02.700
The questions that we are asking

00:46:02.700 --> 00:46:07.292
about power, violence,
mental health.

00:46:07.292 --> 00:46:09.250
How do you forgive people
who have wronged you,

00:46:09.250 --> 00:46:10.450
like really wronged you?

00:46:10.450 --> 00:46:14.690
Like somebody who was
abused by their parents.

00:46:14.690 --> 00:46:18.510
These questions that we
are asking right now,

00:46:18.510 --> 00:46:20.870
in 2017, people have
been wrestling with this

00:46:20.870 --> 00:46:24.140
and asking these questions
for thousands of years.

00:46:24.140 --> 00:46:29.302
And our culture continues
to get more surface,

00:46:29.302 --> 00:46:30.760
sliding down the
surface of things.

00:46:30.760 --> 00:46:31.730
Do you know what I mean?

00:46:31.730 --> 00:46:33.147
Our culture is
more and more like,

00:46:33.147 --> 00:46:36.160
how many views did
that YouTube video get?

00:46:36.160 --> 00:46:38.130
It's almost like our
culture is becoming

00:46:38.130 --> 00:46:40.930
more and more all
treble and no bass.

00:46:40.930 --> 00:46:45.507
And there's a bass note
of human solidarity

00:46:45.507 --> 00:46:46.840
that you aren't the first person

00:46:46.840 --> 00:46:48.257
to shake your fist
at the heavens.

00:46:50.683 --> 00:46:52.100
At the heart of
the Jesus movement

00:46:52.100 --> 00:46:53.900
was this belief in
the reconciliation,

00:46:53.900 --> 00:46:56.760
the renewal and the
restoration of all things.

00:46:56.760 --> 00:46:59.950
Everything broken being fixed.

00:46:59.950 --> 00:47:02.710
Everything that's
wandered coming home.

00:47:02.710 --> 00:47:08.280
Everything that lost the plot

00:47:08.280 --> 00:47:10.840
rediscovering its true story.

00:47:10.840 --> 00:47:16.150
So this movement always
had as its center

00:47:16.150 --> 00:47:21.140
a new heaven and new
earth is one of the terms.

00:47:21.140 --> 00:47:27.497
So, it was never about, well
this group's out, nice try.

00:47:27.497 --> 00:47:29.580
We're gonna party, apparently
you had your moment.

00:47:29.580 --> 00:47:34.930
No, it was always, and
the images are of a feast,

00:47:34.930 --> 00:47:39.740
a banquet, party, a celebration
and everybody's welcome.

00:47:39.740 --> 00:47:40.240
- Hi.

00:47:40.240 --> 00:47:40.780
- Hello.

00:47:40.780 --> 00:47:41.650
- It's very nice to meet you.

00:47:41.650 --> 00:47:42.140
- What's your name?

00:47:42.140 --> 00:47:42.480
- Meg.

00:47:42.480 --> 00:47:43.560
You just signed my book.

00:47:43.560 --> 00:47:44.090
- Oh, great.

00:47:44.090 --> 00:47:45.890
- And I just want to say thank
you so much for your book.

00:47:45.890 --> 00:47:46.473
- My pleasure.

00:47:46.473 --> 00:47:48.830
- I have learned
so much, growing up

00:47:48.830 --> 00:47:51.610
fundamentalist this
is eye-opening.

00:47:51.610 --> 00:47:52.110
- Great!

00:47:52.110 --> 00:47:52.820
- Yes, thank you so much!

00:47:52.820 --> 00:47:52.990
- Good!

00:47:52.990 --> 00:47:54.365
- Can we take a
picture with you?

00:47:54.365 --> 00:47:55.210
- Of course.

00:47:55.210 --> 00:47:58.000
At every juncture
in Luke's gospel,

00:47:58.000 --> 00:48:01.060
when there's somebody who's
been kicked to the edges,

00:48:01.060 --> 00:48:04.360
Jesus embraces and includes.

00:48:04.360 --> 00:48:06.240
Samaritans, in.

00:48:06.240 --> 00:48:08.320
Women, in.

00:48:08.320 --> 00:48:10.940
Lepers, in.

00:48:10.940 --> 00:48:14.030
Cydonians, in.

00:48:14.030 --> 00:48:15.900
Actually one of
the major arcs of

00:48:15.900 --> 00:48:18.620
the gospel of Luke is inclusion.

00:48:18.620 --> 00:48:20.620
It's whoever the system
has pushed to the edges.

00:48:20.620 --> 00:48:22.313
No, no, no they're part of it.

00:48:22.313 --> 00:48:23.730
And there were a
number of people,

00:48:23.730 --> 00:48:25.350
the religious
establishment, who believed

00:48:25.350 --> 00:48:26.400
the reason why
you've been conquered

00:48:26.400 --> 00:48:28.108
by the Romans is
because of these sinners

00:48:28.108 --> 00:48:29.790
who have done all
these horrible things.

00:48:29.790 --> 00:48:32.320
So if you were to
dine with a sinner

00:48:32.320 --> 00:48:34.340
you're saying that
that doesn't matter.

00:48:34.340 --> 00:48:35.390
So all those times
when you're like,

00:48:35.390 --> 00:48:37.390
why does Jesus keep having,
was he hungry a lot?

00:48:37.390 --> 00:48:39.060
Why is he having so many meals?

00:48:39.060 --> 00:48:43.160
A meal was a bold
cultural, political

00:48:43.160 --> 00:48:45.997
statement about who's
in and who's out.

00:48:45.997 --> 00:48:47.830
And when you dined with
somebody what you're

00:48:47.830 --> 00:48:51.178
saying is, they have
God's favor as well.

00:48:51.178 --> 00:48:53.220
Which is why, probably,
in the end he gets killed

00:48:53.220 --> 00:48:55.550
because he keeps challenging
a system that says

00:48:55.550 --> 00:48:58.680
they're out and they're
in, with inclusion.

00:48:58.680 --> 00:49:01.250
And what's fascinating
to me is how many people,

00:49:01.250 --> 00:49:02.750
when you talk about the Bible,

00:49:02.750 --> 00:49:06.040
inclusion isn't one
of the general themes

00:49:06.040 --> 00:49:07.540
they would immediately
come up with.

00:49:07.540 --> 00:49:10.230
And yet, if you actually
read these ancient stories

00:49:10.230 --> 00:49:13.037
this in, years ago, in
a different culture,

00:49:13.037 --> 00:49:15.370
in a different place with all
sorts of different values,

00:49:15.370 --> 00:49:18.715
nevertheless this is what
these writers were doing.

00:49:23.000 --> 00:49:25.040
What kept happening
is when I kept going

00:49:25.040 --> 00:49:27.780
into the Jesus teachings
it took me beyond

00:49:27.780 --> 00:49:30.840
a religion to what does
it mean to be human?

00:49:30.840 --> 00:49:32.890
And I actually
think Jesus would be

00:49:32.890 --> 00:49:34.590
absolutely mortified
that somebody

00:49:34.590 --> 00:49:36.440
started a religion in his name.

00:49:36.440 --> 00:49:39.360
I think he'd be
like, you did what?

00:49:39.360 --> 00:49:44.150
You started another
thing to divide people?

00:49:44.150 --> 00:49:46.970
When I came to bring
you into universal

00:49:46.970 --> 00:49:48.670
solidarity with all human beings

00:49:48.670 --> 00:49:50.790
where you wouldn't be
obsessed with divisions

00:49:50.790 --> 00:49:52.910
and labels and dividers
and boundaries,

00:49:52.910 --> 00:49:55.650
but you would be
overwhelmed with the common

00:49:55.650 --> 00:49:58.570
human solidarity we
have with each other.

00:49:58.570 --> 00:50:01.870
So I just think the actual
Jesus message, I think,

00:50:01.870 --> 00:50:04.450
isn't when people endlessly
cling to, I'm a Christian.

00:50:04.450 --> 00:50:05.150
Do you think
they're a Christian?

00:50:05.150 --> 00:50:06.210
Well, they're a true Christian.

00:50:06.210 --> 00:50:07.380
I don't know, do you
think he's a Christian?

00:50:07.380 --> 00:50:09.070
Well, he just met with
Christian leaders,

00:50:09.070 --> 00:50:11.070
so I think that we probably
should vote for him.

00:50:15.688 --> 00:50:17.230
Well, if you think
about the religion

00:50:17.230 --> 00:50:20.450
that's arisen in Jesus' name,

00:50:20.450 --> 00:50:24.280
how it's become so, in
many ways, corrupted.

00:50:24.280 --> 00:50:26.600
So many expressions of
it, some are beautiful,

00:50:26.600 --> 00:50:28.610
but so much of the
dominant expressions

00:50:28.610 --> 00:50:30.530
of it are completely corrupted.

00:50:30.530 --> 00:50:33.500
They're like a temple that
needs to be torn down.

00:50:33.500 --> 00:50:37.150
And realizing just how
much of what goes on

00:50:37.150 --> 00:50:43.380
in Jesus' name is anti-Christ
in it's energy and direction.

00:50:43.380 --> 00:50:49.290
It is anti what Jesus
was talking about.

00:50:49.290 --> 00:50:54.210
And realizing that
more and more,

00:50:54.210 --> 00:50:56.400
it's just better to
be clear about that.

00:50:56.400 --> 00:50:59.880
- [Interviewer] Don't
you feel like we're

00:50:59.880 --> 00:51:02.050
kind of in the
midst of another--

00:51:02.050 --> 00:51:02.648
- [Rob] Yes.

00:51:02.648 --> 00:51:04.190
- [Interviewer]
Spiritual revolution?

00:51:04.190 --> 00:51:05.190
- Absolutely.

00:51:05.190 --> 00:51:09.670
Buddhism, Judaism, at
some level, Hinduism,

00:51:09.670 --> 00:51:15.400
Christian faith, their
origins are about,

00:51:15.400 --> 00:51:19.100
Islam, 1,000 to 2,000 years old.

00:51:19.100 --> 00:51:22.870
So these, all these
the most dominant

00:51:22.870 --> 00:51:25.275
ways people have come
to understand spirit.

00:51:25.275 --> 00:51:26.150
- [Interviewer] Yeah.

00:51:26.150 --> 00:51:29.520
- Those ideas were first brought

00:51:29.520 --> 00:51:33.360
together a couple
thousand years ago.

00:51:33.360 --> 00:51:37.942
So people had a flat earth,
didn't know about germs.

00:51:37.942 --> 00:51:40.150
Thought the earth was the
center of the solar system.

00:51:40.150 --> 00:51:41.025
- [Interviewer] Yeah.

00:51:41.025 --> 00:51:46.290
- So, these traditions
and Ken Wilbur,

00:51:46.290 --> 00:51:49.080
lots of people have said very
eloquent things about this.

00:51:49.080 --> 00:51:53.260
They got us really
far, but what we know

00:51:53.260 --> 00:51:56.340
in the past hundred
years about the psyche,

00:51:56.340 --> 00:52:00.010
about neurochemistry,
about astrophysics,

00:52:00.010 --> 00:52:03.770
about a Tesla that has a
trunk in the front and back.

00:52:03.770 --> 00:52:05.422
(interviewer laughing)

00:52:05.422 --> 00:52:07.380
Tonight I'm gonna tell
about my friend's Tesla,

00:52:07.380 --> 00:52:09.338
who he got an email the
other day that while he

00:52:09.338 --> 00:52:11.730
was sleeping they had fixed
his brakes through wifi.

00:52:11.730 --> 00:52:12.310
- [Interviewer] What?

00:52:12.310 --> 00:52:12.935
Get outta here!

00:52:12.935 --> 00:52:17.780
- So, and all of
this has happened

00:52:17.780 --> 00:52:19.697
in the past hundred years.

00:52:19.697 --> 00:52:21.530
So we are going through
a revolution because

00:52:21.530 --> 00:52:28.370
these great, great traditions
have to be expanded.

00:52:28.370 --> 00:52:31.440
You can keep them, I'm all
about resurrection, fantastic.

00:52:31.440 --> 00:52:36.960
But if you don't speak to the
world we're now living in.

00:52:36.960 --> 00:52:40.790
I mean what is it, what
percentage of England

00:52:40.790 --> 00:52:44.280
even would consider, would
say they're religious?

00:52:44.280 --> 00:52:45.870
Like, the religions have failed.

00:52:45.870 --> 00:52:48.320
Anything that, you dip
below 10%, you've failed.

00:52:48.320 --> 00:52:50.320
You're a candidate running
for president and you

00:52:50.320 --> 00:52:54.293
go below 10%, your
campaign's on life support.

00:52:54.293 --> 00:52:55.210
- [Interviewer] Right.

00:52:55.210 --> 00:52:58.290
- But in large portions
of the Western world

00:52:58.290 --> 00:53:00.370
you're way under 10% would even

00:53:00.370 --> 00:53:02.850
identify with a
religious tradition.

00:53:02.850 --> 00:53:04.530
So, essentially, they've failed.

00:53:04.530 --> 00:53:07.295
And yet, we're more
hungry than ever.

00:53:07.295 --> 00:53:08.170
- [Interviewer] Yeah.

00:53:08.170 --> 00:53:10.610
- So, your thing of are we
in the midst of something?

00:53:10.610 --> 00:53:13.750
Yes, because we're
more hungry than ever.

00:53:13.750 --> 00:53:16.750
And yet, the dominant
ways that human beings,

00:53:16.750 --> 00:53:20.410
for thousands of years,
got water for that thirst

00:53:20.410 --> 00:53:26.390
and food for that hunger
have at some level, failed.

00:53:26.390 --> 00:53:28.760
So you have to be honest
about the failure,

00:53:28.760 --> 00:53:30.560
and then you have to say,

00:53:30.560 --> 00:53:33.420
so what does the
next thing look like?

00:53:33.420 --> 00:53:35.530
So if you have a Jesus
community and you're not

00:53:35.530 --> 00:53:37.390
talking about our
connection with the soil.

00:53:37.390 --> 00:53:38.265
- [Interviewer] Yeah.

00:53:38.265 --> 00:53:42.680
- Then, you're part
of the problem.

00:53:42.680 --> 00:53:46.380
If you don't have anything
in your Jesus community,

00:53:46.380 --> 00:53:47.630
if you don't have a big, wide,

00:53:47.630 --> 00:53:52.130
open embrace of
science, you're done.

00:53:52.130 --> 00:53:54.930
I mean, obviously
women's rights, LGBT,

00:53:54.930 --> 00:53:57.400
minorities, love of
our Muslim neighbors,

00:53:57.400 --> 00:54:02.150
if those aren't all
just basics, done.

00:54:02.150 --> 00:54:02.650
Done!

00:54:02.650 --> 00:54:04.370
- [Interviewer]
Yeah, come on, man.

00:54:04.370 --> 00:54:06.340
- That's what's happening.

00:54:06.340 --> 00:54:07.960
And so you have
some death throes,

00:54:07.960 --> 00:54:10.710
some death rattle which might
be loud for a little bit,

00:54:10.710 --> 00:54:16.410
but otherwise, there's a
whole thing that's over.

00:54:16.410 --> 00:54:19.730
- I think the greatest
story ever told

00:54:19.730 --> 00:54:22.570
may just be the
greatest story ever sold

00:54:22.570 --> 00:54:26.600
and we bought it,
or bought into it.

00:54:26.600 --> 00:54:28.390
And it's so screwed up,

00:54:28.390 --> 00:54:31.340
the collective
consciousness of the planet.

00:54:31.340 --> 00:54:35.620
This God we've made up
isn't working and we have

00:54:35.620 --> 00:54:40.060
lied to ourselves, to
the world and to it.

00:54:40.060 --> 00:54:41.110
We need to rethink.

00:54:41.110 --> 00:54:42.690
The word repent,
metanoia means to

00:54:42.690 --> 00:54:45.370
change the mind or to
rethink or reconsider,

00:54:45.370 --> 00:54:48.270
or after you've
thought, think again.

00:54:48.270 --> 00:54:55.120
- There is no space
that is solely devoted

00:54:55.120 --> 00:54:58.030
to human beings waking
up to our responsibility

00:54:58.030 --> 00:54:59.710
as spiritual beings to care for

00:54:59.710 --> 00:55:01.580
each other and
care for our world.

00:55:01.580 --> 00:55:04.240
Other than spirituality
and religion,

00:55:04.240 --> 00:55:06.770
which have utterly failed
millions and millions

00:55:06.770 --> 00:55:07.560
of people.

00:55:07.560 --> 00:55:11.940
But ideally, religion
and spirituality

00:55:11.940 --> 00:55:15.370
are designed to
help wake you up,

00:55:15.370 --> 00:55:20.230
to grow you in an
expansive, compassionate,

00:55:20.230 --> 00:55:22.710
inclusive embrace
and understanding of

00:55:22.710 --> 00:55:24.460
who you are and what
you're doing here and

00:55:24.460 --> 00:55:27.810
what our shared common
life looks like together.

00:55:27.810 --> 00:55:30.980
Otherwise, law can
only go so far.

00:55:30.980 --> 00:55:33.050
Academics can only go so far.

00:55:33.050 --> 00:55:34.930
Business can only go so far.

00:55:34.930 --> 00:55:37.150
Technology can only go so far.

00:55:37.150 --> 00:55:39.560
And the problem is if
people don't wake up,

00:55:39.560 --> 00:55:44.960
then they use those disciplines
to create even more havoc.

00:55:44.960 --> 00:55:47.020
So you have corrupt
business product.

00:55:47.020 --> 00:55:49.080
You have corrupt
business practices.

00:55:49.080 --> 00:55:51.900
You have institutions
that don't prepare people

00:55:51.900 --> 00:55:53.770
to do anything that
brings them any joy

00:55:53.770 --> 00:55:56.590
or meaning or any good
service to the world.

00:55:56.590 --> 00:55:59.460
You have technology in
the wrong hands and it

00:55:59.460 --> 00:56:04.470
just allows people to
harm each other even more.

00:56:04.470 --> 00:56:09.110
So, we actually need
this more than ever.

00:56:09.110 --> 00:56:11.040
And what people don't
want anything to do with

00:56:11.040 --> 00:56:13.730
is bad religion,
which they shouldn't.

00:56:13.730 --> 00:56:18.720
But, actual training,
help, education,

00:56:18.720 --> 00:56:23.110
insight, practices that
can shape your heart,

00:56:23.110 --> 00:56:25.380
that can give you a calm center,

00:56:25.380 --> 00:56:27.130
that can teach you how
to forgive somebody

00:56:27.130 --> 00:56:28.880
who's wronged you,
which doesn't mean that

00:56:28.880 --> 00:56:30.980
you condone or approve
of what they did,

00:56:30.980 --> 00:56:32.560
this is more needed than ever.

00:56:32.560 --> 00:56:46.310
- What happens after
Darwinism is that you get

00:56:46.310 --> 00:56:51.090
a world full of scientists
who have no soul

00:56:51.090 --> 00:56:53.810
and the religious
who have no mind.

00:56:53.810 --> 00:56:54.890
Right?

00:56:54.890 --> 00:56:58.970
And that's what's lost, right?

00:56:58.970 --> 00:57:02.170
That's a serious loss,
you can't be soulless

00:57:02.170 --> 00:57:04.570
and have a life of
any sort of meaning.

00:57:04.570 --> 00:57:06.070
You can't be.

00:57:06.070 --> 00:57:08.210
And you can't be
mindless and have

00:57:08.210 --> 00:57:10.270
a life of any sort
of meaning. (laughs)

00:57:10.270 --> 00:57:15.450
So the tricky thing is
their books don't match.

00:57:15.450 --> 00:57:18.780
Their stories don't meld
and their books don't match.

00:57:18.780 --> 00:57:22.130
So I think until you
can create some sort of

00:57:22.130 --> 00:57:24.440
way of being in the
world that is both

00:57:24.440 --> 00:57:28.040
soulful and mindful,
you're gonna have a bunch

00:57:28.040 --> 00:57:31.820
of people who are very
hurt and very broken.

00:57:31.820 --> 00:57:34.000
Rob puts it really
well when he says this

00:57:34.000 --> 00:57:35.625
whole idea of this
is all pure science,

00:57:35.625 --> 00:57:37.792
everything is rational,
everything can be explained,

00:57:37.792 --> 00:57:39.720
is all well and good,
until somebody puts

00:57:39.720 --> 00:57:41.980
your firstborn
child in your arms

00:57:41.980 --> 00:57:44.700
and something
happens to you that

00:57:44.700 --> 00:57:47.630
you can't identify
scientifically.

00:57:47.630 --> 00:57:50.520
Until you're standing
on the edge of the grave

00:57:50.520 --> 00:57:53.090
of somebody who was the
world to you and that

00:57:53.090 --> 00:57:58.050
feeling that you have
needs bigger language.

00:57:58.050 --> 00:58:00.190
- When people tell me
they've lost their faith,

00:58:00.190 --> 00:58:03.170
if they grew up like me,
and they grew up literal,

00:58:03.170 --> 00:58:06.080
fundamentalist Bible
believing Christians,

00:58:06.080 --> 00:58:08.220
and they say I lost my
faith, I really do think

00:58:08.220 --> 00:58:10.440
that's a mitzvah and it's nice.

00:58:10.440 --> 00:58:13.380
But I, then I'm always like,
okay talk to me in five years.

00:58:13.380 --> 00:58:15.672
I'm not saying that you don't
have anything to say now,

00:58:15.672 --> 00:58:17.880
but I'm just saying
you've just kind of begun

00:58:17.880 --> 00:58:21.510
the really fun and
messy destruction of all

00:58:21.510 --> 00:58:24.780
the bullshit that you just
really can't stand anymore.

00:58:24.780 --> 00:58:30.150
And it feels so good
to go into your house

00:58:30.150 --> 00:58:33.760
and throw away that ottoman
that you never wanted,

00:58:33.760 --> 00:58:38.120
you never wanted, the one true
way, turn or burn ottoman.

00:58:38.120 --> 00:58:40.010
You never wanted it.

00:58:40.010 --> 00:58:42.500
You wanted something,
you wanted something.

00:58:42.500 --> 00:58:45.885
You didn't know what it
was, but they gave you this.

00:58:45.885 --> 00:58:47.510
And then it gets very
exciting and it's

00:58:47.510 --> 00:58:49.410
very intoxicating
to throw that out.

00:58:49.410 --> 00:58:52.160
And then you can just have
this kind of empty room

00:58:52.160 --> 00:58:56.180
and that can be fine,
but I think what's lost

00:58:56.180 --> 00:59:01.330
when we completely throw
away the exploration

00:59:01.330 --> 00:59:03.240
of something behind what we see,

00:59:03.240 --> 00:59:06.110
something beyond electrons
and quarks or whatever,

00:59:06.110 --> 00:59:09.470
some sort of divine order,
some sort of consciousness.

00:59:09.470 --> 00:59:13.210
- Is something moving
the whole thing forward?

00:59:13.210 --> 00:59:17.320
Is there something that
undergirds all of reality,

00:59:17.320 --> 00:59:20.110
that is pulling it into
greater complexity,

00:59:20.110 --> 00:59:25.490
depth, unity, inclusion, or is
there nothing going on here?

00:59:25.490 --> 00:59:31.000
Are we just a sum of our
synapses, our cells, our parts?

00:59:31.000 --> 00:59:35.500
Because I think the
only rational response

00:59:35.500 --> 00:59:37.860
to the world is that
of the epiphenomenon.

00:59:37.860 --> 00:59:40.590
The parts together make
up a whole that has all

00:59:40.590 --> 00:59:43.140
these properties that
aren't present in the parts.

00:59:43.140 --> 00:59:45.340
There's something
present among us

00:59:45.340 --> 00:59:48.190
that is greater than us,
that can't be explained

00:59:48.190 --> 00:59:51.067
by just being the
sum of the parts.

00:59:51.067 --> 00:59:52.650
That, to me, is the
greatest argument.

00:59:52.650 --> 00:59:54.192
We used to have
slaves, now we don't.

00:59:54.192 --> 00:59:56.770
Why are things that
were once totally

00:59:56.770 --> 00:59:59.370
understood and
accepted, now we reject

00:59:59.370 --> 01:00:02.500
them as being
unjust and horrific?

01:00:02.500 --> 01:00:03.180
Why?

01:00:03.180 --> 01:00:05.980
Why do we have the sense that
we used to be back there,

01:00:05.980 --> 01:00:08.565
primitive, barbaric,
violent and now we're here?

01:00:08.565 --> 01:00:09.940
But we need to
keep going because

01:00:09.940 --> 01:00:11.940
there's still areas where
we need to keep going.

01:00:11.940 --> 01:00:15.580
Why does every human have
a sense that we were there

01:00:15.580 --> 01:00:17.470
and we've moved and
we need to keep going?

01:00:17.470 --> 01:00:18.730
What is that?

01:00:18.730 --> 01:00:21.160
It's almost, it's
the giant question at

01:00:21.160 --> 01:00:23.260
the heart of the
human experience.

01:00:23.260 --> 01:00:26.600
And I think God is
the best name for it.

01:00:26.600 --> 01:00:28.760
It's been referred to

01:00:28.760 --> 01:00:33.510
spark, like the fuel
of the universe.

01:00:33.510 --> 01:00:35.820
Some have called it spirit.

01:00:35.820 --> 01:00:40.790
Some have called it like,
an engine of the universe.

01:00:40.790 --> 01:00:44.390
There are even some you may
have read about them in books.

01:00:44.390 --> 01:00:50.240
There are even some who have
referred to this as God.

01:00:50.240 --> 01:00:52.750
Now, maybe you can't
do the whole God thing.

01:00:52.750 --> 01:00:54.397
Okay.

01:00:54.397 --> 01:00:55.480
Maybe you're like, no way.

01:00:55.480 --> 01:00:56.830
I can't, that word God, nope.

01:00:56.830 --> 01:01:00.510
Maybe for you the word
God is all wrapped up

01:01:00.510 --> 01:01:03.490
in what feels to you
like a step backwards.

01:01:03.490 --> 01:01:05.120
Anybody know what
I'm talking about?

01:01:05.120 --> 01:01:07.690
Okay, that's fine.

01:01:07.690 --> 01:01:09.040
Okay, not a big deal.

01:01:09.040 --> 01:01:11.040
If you don't wanna use
the word God that's okay.

01:01:11.040 --> 01:01:13.120
It's not a big deal.

01:01:13.120 --> 01:01:14.410
Then don't use it.

01:01:14.410 --> 01:01:19.880
Although, this will probably
come up under a different name.

01:01:19.880 --> 01:01:20.868
Are you with me?

01:01:20.868 --> 01:01:22.910
And actually my friends
who don't believe in God,

01:01:22.910 --> 01:01:24.590
when we talk about the God
that they don't believe in,

01:01:24.590 --> 01:01:26.210
I don't believe in
that God either.

01:01:26.210 --> 01:01:30.825
(audience laughing)

01:01:30.825 --> 01:01:32.700
And actually sometimes
when people said like,

01:01:32.700 --> 01:01:34.450
they could never embrace
the idea of a God

01:01:34.450 --> 01:01:37.097
and I say, well, tell me
about how you understand God.

01:01:37.097 --> 01:01:38.430
And they talk about the God that

01:01:38.430 --> 01:01:40.570
they were handed growing up.

01:01:40.570 --> 01:01:43.800
I think, oh dear Lord, I
think atheism is actually

01:01:43.800 --> 01:01:48.740
the most healthy spiritual
response to that view of God.

01:01:48.740 --> 01:01:50.030
Are you with me?

01:01:50.030 --> 01:01:53.870
So let's leave behind
labels and names and words,

01:01:53.870 --> 01:01:55.930
if we have to, that
aren't helpful and let's

01:01:55.930 --> 01:02:01.270
get back to now what is
this thing at work here?

01:02:01.270 --> 01:02:04.040
- It's not that we're split
between people who are

01:02:04.040 --> 01:02:08.280
certain and people who
have questions and doubts.

01:02:08.280 --> 01:02:10.500
For me, it's mostly
actually that there are

01:02:10.500 --> 01:02:13.310
people who have
doubts and questions,

01:02:13.310 --> 01:02:15.980
but hide from them,
push them down,

01:02:15.980 --> 01:02:19.450
and those who are able
to make space for them.

01:02:19.450 --> 01:02:23.270
Most people do have questions
and concerns about the world.

01:02:23.270 --> 01:02:25.050
I mean, no matter
how certain you are

01:02:25.050 --> 01:02:28.820
about your perspective,
there's a certain sense

01:02:28.820 --> 01:02:30.690
that you get when you're a child

01:02:30.690 --> 01:02:33.220
that maybe you believe
what you believe

01:02:33.220 --> 01:02:35.660
because of your
parents, your culture,

01:02:35.660 --> 01:02:37.190
the language you were given,

01:02:37.190 --> 01:02:39.427
the books that you
were given to read.

01:02:39.427 --> 01:02:41.260
There's a certain sense
in which it's almost

01:02:41.260 --> 01:02:45.270
like we're someone who
decides what we believe

01:02:45.270 --> 01:02:47.790
through the throwing
of three dice.

01:02:47.790 --> 01:02:50.260
Because in a sense we're
thrown into the world.

01:02:50.260 --> 01:02:53.340
If I was born somewhere
else in some other country

01:02:53.340 --> 01:02:55.870
at some other time with
some other language

01:02:55.870 --> 01:02:59.570
I'd probably believe
something very different.

01:02:59.570 --> 01:03:02.150
But it's frightening to
open yourself up to that.

01:03:02.150 --> 01:03:04.860
You think your world
is gonna unravel.

01:03:04.860 --> 01:03:08.400
But interestingly,
the word unraveling

01:03:08.400 --> 01:03:10.300
is the same as
the word raveling.

01:03:10.300 --> 01:03:13.020
To ravel means to pull apart.

01:03:13.020 --> 01:03:16.740
It just doesn't have the
negative 'un' bit to it.

01:03:16.740 --> 01:03:19.950
And a lot of the work of
someone like Rob is to say

01:03:19.950 --> 01:03:23.930
don't fear unraveling,
it's actually positive.

01:03:23.930 --> 01:03:27.630
- People who bring up
the challenging questions

01:03:27.630 --> 01:03:30.640
are the ones who help bring
innovation and creativity.

01:03:30.640 --> 01:03:32.280
I mean, if I look
at my tradition,

01:03:32.280 --> 01:03:34.490
look at the Torah
and the prophets.

01:03:34.490 --> 01:03:36.920
The prophets were
people who stood up

01:03:36.920 --> 01:03:39.830
against the majority and
said this is not okay.

01:03:39.830 --> 01:03:43.680
We are not living the life
we're supposed to be living.

01:03:43.680 --> 01:03:46.650
I mean, change it, wake
up, do something about it.

01:03:46.650 --> 01:03:48.160
I think what he's
trying to do is

01:03:48.160 --> 01:03:50.150
deepen people's
connection to their faith.

01:03:50.150 --> 01:03:52.700
He's not trying to tell
people to give up on it.

01:03:55.740 --> 01:04:00.890
- So I tried doing club
and theater tours in 2006.

01:04:00.890 --> 01:04:04.030
The venues kept getting bigger.

01:04:04.030 --> 01:04:08.280
I mean, like, solid, I was doing

01:04:08.280 --> 01:04:10.140
the rooms that my
favorite bands do.

01:04:10.140 --> 01:04:12.570
It was that, like, whoa.

01:04:12.570 --> 01:04:18.010
And then Love Wins
came out in 2011

01:04:18.010 --> 01:04:25.300
and that fall I did a
club and theater tour.

01:04:25.300 --> 01:04:28.900
And I, I'll never forget
the booking agent saying,

01:04:28.900 --> 01:04:32.390
yeah, tickets aren't
selling that well.

01:04:32.390 --> 01:04:35.150
And then, I mean, I would
go to a town where I'd,

01:04:35.150 --> 01:04:38.860
where the last time I
was there it sold out

01:04:38.860 --> 01:04:42.660
with a thousand
people, 1200 people.

01:04:42.660 --> 01:04:45.180
And I'd walk out on
stage and there'd be

01:04:45.180 --> 01:04:53.130
50 people huddled in the middle
of this cavernous theater.

01:04:53.130 --> 01:04:55.340
And a friend of mine,
I remember saying,

01:04:55.340 --> 01:04:58.780
dude, you lost your audience.

01:04:58.780 --> 01:05:03.220
I had,

01:05:03.220 --> 01:05:09.100
I had to make peace
with maybe you had

01:05:09.100 --> 01:05:12.190
your moment and now
the rest of your life

01:05:12.190 --> 01:05:14.480
you'll just quietly
sort of fade.

01:05:14.480 --> 01:05:16.940
And you'll have your
life with your family,

01:05:16.940 --> 01:05:20.930
you'll go surfing, you'll
figure out something else to do.

01:05:20.930 --> 01:05:23.180
Kristen and I had
this running joke

01:05:23.180 --> 01:05:26.200
from Spinal Tap,
maybe I'd sell shoes.

01:05:26.200 --> 01:05:31.887
I think you're an 11.

01:05:31.887 --> 01:05:33.220
So I had to go through all that.

01:05:33.220 --> 01:05:34.303
That was the fall of 2011.

01:05:34.303 --> 01:05:37.700
I was just thinking about
that, it took a while.

01:05:37.700 --> 01:05:39.930
It was like a death.

01:05:39.930 --> 01:05:46.620
So, now it's six years later

01:05:46.620 --> 01:05:49.080
and there's like, people buying

01:05:49.080 --> 01:05:52.070
a ticket to sit on the floor,

01:05:52.070 --> 01:05:53.055
(laughs)

01:05:53.055 --> 01:05:54.680
when it's literally
standing room only.

01:05:57.850 --> 01:06:01.190
I,

01:06:01.190 --> 01:06:02.820
I have a level of gratitude.

01:06:11.490 --> 01:06:16.010
May you hear the bass notes in

01:06:16.010 --> 01:06:19.390
a culture that is
more and more treble.

01:06:19.390 --> 01:06:21.900
May you swim in a deeper stream,

01:06:21.900 --> 01:06:25.450
realizing that you
haven't left the tradition

01:06:25.450 --> 01:06:28.370
when you ask the question,
when you go on the journey,

01:06:28.370 --> 01:06:30.010
when you're filled
with curiosity,

01:06:30.010 --> 01:06:33.580
that is the tradition.

01:06:33.580 --> 01:06:38.530
May you be comforted
that every dimension

01:06:38.530 --> 01:06:42.290
of your story,
struggle and inner life

01:06:42.290 --> 01:06:45.400
can be named and
its rage, anger,

01:06:45.400 --> 01:06:49.760
betrayal, joy,
connection, peace, love.

01:06:49.760 --> 01:06:53.390
It can all be given
expression because it's

01:06:53.390 --> 01:06:55.350
all part of what it
means to be human

01:06:55.350 --> 01:06:58.820
and the divine may even
be found in some of

01:06:58.820 --> 01:07:02.480
the parts that you would
most wish to keep down.

01:07:02.480 --> 01:07:07.760
May you come to believe that
there's more going on here.

01:07:07.760 --> 01:07:09.260
That we're not alone.

01:07:09.260 --> 01:07:12.740
That spirit is
speaking to each of us.

01:07:12.740 --> 01:07:14.850
May you in those
moments of disruption

01:07:14.850 --> 01:07:17.640
not dig in your heels and
keep repeating the cliches,

01:07:17.640 --> 01:07:20.980
but may you allow yourself
to be broken and open up.

01:07:20.980 --> 01:07:23.700
May you ask yourself,
this is so difficult,

01:07:23.700 --> 01:07:29.030
but I wonder what's going to
be created out of even this?

01:07:29.030 --> 01:07:31.370
And when you find yourself
stressed, worried,

01:07:31.370 --> 01:07:33.760
anxious about the
state of our world,

01:07:33.760 --> 01:07:37.880
may you remember that
it's at its worst

01:07:37.880 --> 01:07:40.020
when it's at its absolute worst,

01:07:40.020 --> 01:07:45.740
is often when you're
ready for imagination

01:07:45.740 --> 01:07:48.810
about just what
might be possible.

01:07:48.810 --> 01:07:51.570
And my brothers and
sisters, may grace

01:07:51.570 --> 01:07:57.560
and peace be with you
every step of the way.

01:07:57.560 --> 01:07:58.060
Thank you.

01:07:58.060 --> 01:08:01.010
(audience clapping)

01:08:01.010 --> 01:08:09.020
(audience cheering)

01:08:09.020 --> 01:08:28.399
(soft music)

01:08:28.399 --> 01:08:47.910
- [Interviewer] What is it
for you at the end of the day

01:08:47.910 --> 01:08:50.990
that you most want
people to know?

01:08:50.990 --> 01:08:52.810
- [Rob] What the
modern world does is it

01:08:52.810 --> 01:08:56.100
cuts you off from
the depth of life.

01:08:56.100 --> 01:09:00.310
Just skim the surface,
just numb the pain.

01:09:00.310 --> 01:09:01.580
There is a fullness to life

01:09:01.580 --> 01:09:02.955
that you can
actually experience.

01:09:07.420 --> 01:09:10.710
Everything you are working and

01:09:10.710 --> 01:09:13.700
striving for you already have.

01:09:13.700 --> 01:09:18.740
That sell off and we're
working, sweating, clinging,

01:09:18.740 --> 01:09:23.290
grasping, striving to
feel worthy enough.

01:09:23.290 --> 01:09:25.127
And the fundamental good news,

01:09:25.127 --> 01:09:26.960
what's called the gospel
is the announcement

01:09:26.960 --> 01:09:52.990
that you're loved
exactly as you are.

01:11:04.950 --> 01:11:06.860
(soft music)