FROM THIS DAY FORWARD - Transcript

 

Sharon:            Okay, so what did you have for breakfast?

 

Trisha:             That would be French toast, vegan French toast.

 

Sharon:            Nice.

 

Trisha:             Testing, testing.

 

Sharon:            And some coffee?

 

Trisha:             Coffee.

 

Sharon:            Always.

 

Trisha:             Sixteen ounces. Born in Denver, Colorado.

 

Sharon:            Can you say “I was born?”

 

Trisha:             Yes, I was.

 

Sharon:            Can you just say “I was born?” A complete sentence.

 

Trisha:             I grew up there at a time when the air was clear. Tumbleweeds, rattle snakes, horny toads squirt blood from their eyes.

 

Sharon:            Really?

 

Trisha:             Really. That’s the absolute truth. Check it out.

 

Sharon:            Is this a dad truth or an absolute truth?

 

Trisha:             Google it.

 

Sharon:            Can I just get some footage of you driving for a sec?

 

Trisha:             Sure. Won’t that be exciting? [Laughs] I’ve got my four-wheel drive Dodge Stratus. Oh shit, I’m in the wrong lane. You know what? Maybe this isn’t working.

 

Sharon:            What would you do if you wanted to teach me a move so that I wouldn’t get attacked?

 

Trisha:             Just lead with this knuckle.

 

Sharon:            Okay.

 

Trisha:             If one hand goes out, the other hand goes back.

 

Sharon:            When I was 13 my dad was driving me to school and told me “Sharon, whenever you get married, I hope that you’ll let me wear a dress when I walk you down the aisle.” I remember just feeling this sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach because I didn’t ever want that day to come.

 

(2:18)

 

So where were we? Let me just . . . okay. So you were saying?

 

Trisha:             Choosing a name.

 

Sharon:            Choosing a name.

 

Trisha:             Years ago as a little child, when I was introduced to the first baby I had ever seen, a newborn baby, and so I was pretty young –  I’m going to say I was four – I was told that the baby’s name was Trisha. And I don’t know why but I really wished that my name had been Trisha.

 

I’m sure that this is probably typical of anybody who’s gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgender. You sense – you have a definite sense that something’s not quite right. How come I wasn’t born a girl?

 

Sharon:            When I was younger I pretty much rejected my dad. I just didn’t want to deal with the fact that I had a transgender parent.

 

[Video playing]

 

For me I think that a lot of the past is kind of unresolved. As hard as it might be for my family I want to ask the questions that I couldn’t ask back then.

 

Trisha:             Hi.

 

Child:              Hi.

 

Trisha:             There’s my family. Gee, am I still filming?

 

(4:15)

 

Trisha:             I like a skirt that has some pleats. Kind of helps give me some hips that I don’t have. I’ve had people tell me, they say “Good God are you tall.” I say can’t that be elegant? I look nice. Shall we?

 

Sharon:            Sure, let’s do it.

 

When I was young we lived in Chicago. My mom was a young doctor so she was working all the time. Mom was the primary breadwinner and dad was the primary caretaker. And at first it was a pretty average childhood.

 

Trisha:             Enjoying the evening. I’ve come over to read your magazine, catch up on casual reading. She’s stretching. [Laughs]

 

Trisha:             I’ve always wanted to have children and I had a chance to put you on my hip and carried my diaper bag around and hang out with other mothers. And so vicariously it’s as close as I could come.

 

(6:05)

 

Sharon:            To what?

 

Trisha:             To being a mother. You know, to being your mom.

 

Sharon:            Did you feel alone in that situation?

 

Trisha:             Oh yeah, I felt very, very alone trying to keep the crossdressing hidden from neighbors and relatives and going out at night to events or whatever or looking both ways and changing clothes in the back of your vehicle in large parking lots with nobody around. You know, after a while that gets old.

 

Sharon:            It was a Christmas morning and I was really young. I might’ve been in third grade, and so my sister was like first grade. I remember my sister was snooping in my dad’s office and found some photos that had been glued together and she peeled them apart and saw dad dressed as a woman. And so she brought them to my mom and was like “Why is dad dressed like grandma?” My parents felt that it was time to tell us, and so my dad left the room and then came back dressed in women’s clothing. As children we didn’t really understand what that meant.

 

Woman:          Good, Sharon. That’s nice.

 

Sharon:            But eventually one day my parents sat us down in the living room of our house and announced that they were going to get a divorce. They seemed so heartbroken. And I don’t know what happened between them after that, but they ended up not going through with it so we never talked about divorce again. It just kind of went away.

 

What’s the game?

 

(8:05)

 

Trisha:             It’s where I stand out here and I pretend to be chasing her. We go around. Oh, she comes back. Okay. All right.

 

Sharon:            Hi, mom.

 

Marsha:           Hi.

 

Sharon:            All right, let’s do it. I actually put on my boots. Mom, are you excited?

 

Marsha:           I’m very excited.

 

Sharon:            How many times have you gone out mushrooming this year?

 

Marsha:           None. This is the first time.

 

Trisha:             Watch out for the dove when you come out.

 

Marsha:           I’m getting excited. Oh, here. This is yours. Or is it mine?

 

Trisha:             I’ll carry this out. You can follow us out, okay? But just keep your head down because there’s this dove right here nesting right by the side of the . . . okay, ready Marsha?

 

Marsha:           Yep.

 

Trisha:             Do you see it?

 

Sharon:            I see it.

 

Trisha:             If we go west we may find that dirt road over there and eventually find that tree. There it is.

 

Sharon:            Mushroom number one.

 

Marsha:           Here we go.

 

Trisha:             Here, mushroom. Here, mushroom, mushroom. Does my hair look okay, hun?

 

Marsha:           It does.

 

Trisha:             Check my makeup.

 

Marsha:           Beautiful.

 

Trisha:             Oh yeah, I know. Thirty-five years ago and you want us to remember what we said back then?

 

(10:10)

 

Marsha:           You were out sunning.

 

Trisha:             I was just like a turtle on a log trying to soak up heat on my back wearing my tightest little blue cotton shorts.

 

Marsha:           Yeah. That was very interesting.

 

Trisha:             And Marsha walked over to me. She saw me and walked over.

 

Marsha:           I was interested, so . . . I was moving shortly after that and you decided that you wanted to help me. You told me later that one of the reasons you did was because you wanted to find out what my new address was going to be.

 

Trisha:             I was so sly. I’m not a real swift person when it comes to relationships so it was a lot of sitting around in a candlelit room listening to old rock and roll LPs and old blues that largely went nowhere. “All right, see you tomorrow.” “Okay. Good night.”

 

Marsha:           And so then there was a guy at work that I was . . .

 

Trisha:             I remember that guy.

 

Marsha:           . . . starting to date.

 

Trisha:             Well, I called up. I said “What’s going on? What’s happening?” And you go “Well, not tonight. I have a friend over.” I go “A friend?” And then Marsha says “Yes, he’s sitting here now with me in the apartment.” And I’m going “What?” I hopped in my Delta 88, my old Delta 88, and rumbled on over there and knocked on the door. Ba-dunk, dunk, dunk. Marsha opens the door a crack. I look in there and there’s this groovy dude sitting there. He’s got his acoustic guitar and he’s sitting there playing some quiet music and I thought . . .

 

(11:55)

 

Marsha:           [Laughs]

 

Trisha:             And Marsha said “Well, I don’t know. I hadn’t heard anything from you. I just figured maybe you weren’t interested.” And I decided right then and there, I said I am going to exhibit greater interest and I proposed. But I didn’t have a ring, because it’s just like me to have not anticipated to the point of . . . I don’t think I had the money. I didn’t go to my dad and say “Dad, I need money for a ring.” When we went for rings we chose these little slender bands partly because that’s all we could afford but also because we didn’t really want something real ostentatious. I wanted my band slim to match Marsha’s.

 

Sharon:            There’s a fly on the lens.

 

Marsha:           The black flies are out.

 

Sharon:            Can you please blow on that? Oh wait, no, it went off. Oh no, now it’s back.

 

Trisha:             Hi. My daughter has asked me to film some more. It’s not a real high-priced camera so I can’t zoom or do other fun stuff. Got my jam box, some of my abused brushes, my cactus that I bent over and put my head into the other day picking up lids that fell down. Power tools. There is my Stelling banjo. My cat, Psycho.

 

(14:00)

 

I derive a lot of spiritual satisfaction from being in front of my canvases and working within that moment, making the marks and pushing the paint and doing the work. The imagery within the painting is highly personal to me. These are my diary. These are the events of my life.

 

I painted Where the Marsh Meets the Lake around the time when I first met Marsha. The marsh represents Marsha and the lake represents me and it’s really a biologically-rich place with a lot of life and variation. I could sense that we were working together as a couple. ‘81.

 

Sharon:            ‘81 what?

 

Trisha:             Was the year that we married, made a commitment. [Laughs] What?

 

Sharon:            What do you mean by that? Like you decided to be attracted to women, or you just were and that’s just . . .

 

Trisha:             Oh no, I’ve always been attracted to women and there have been plenty of opportunities for me to be attracted or to follow-through with attraction to men. A lot of people just assume that if you’re transgender and if you dress as a woman that you want to be with a man and that’s not always the case.

 

(16:10)

 

I will go back and mention that on our first or second date I told Marsha that there was an aspect of me that she should know about early on, and that it’s nothing that I wanted to hide from her. She’s the absolute first person that I ever came out to. I went over to my closet and I dressed up as my fem self and then I asked her to come out and then I tried to explain to her why I was behaving the way I did and you just try to allay any fears. Initially I think she probably thought it was kinky and as long as it stayed in the privacy of the bedroom that would be fine. Then ultimately it was something that I couldn’t just keep in the bedroom.

 

Sharon:            How did you envision your marriage when you were younger? Like before you met Trish.

 

Marsha:           Oh probably I would say like a lot of little kids like me born in the ‘50s we grew up with Walt Disney, right? And there was the princess and your hero. And then you look at your parents and their marriage and it’s very traditional, so the assumption is that’s the way it’ll be, you know? But I knew I wanted to go to college and be able to make my own way in the world. I never thought that I’d be a mom. I was never a kind of girl that loved to babysit and things like that.

 

(18:12)

 

Sharon:            I can’t imagine you not being a mom.

 

Marsha:           It was kind of an unexpected thing. [Laughs]

 

Sharon:            Oh, so I was a surprise?

 

Marsha:           You were a little bit of a surprise. Not an entire surprise.

 

[Children’s song playing in video]

 

Sharon:            How did you react when Trish first told you about being transgender? Do you remember that scene and what you . . .

 

Marsha:           I do remember that scene because we were starting to get serious about one another, and then one day Trish said “Well, I’m going to step out and then I’ll come back.” And Trish came back dressed as a woman. And I can say that I was . . . I can tell you that I had had a very sheltered life. I had no idea that men wore women’s clothing or there was this whole thing. I was totally naïve. It was definitely very stressful sometimes, and I mean honestly it was too different. And maybe from your perspective of you girls I think you were really angry and felt like I was not thinking of you and not caring about you enough, but that’s where it’s really hard. It’s like choosing between your children and your spouse. You know, that’s really tough.

 

(19:50)

 

Laura:              [Laughs] No, actually growing up you were the one who had like the plastic horses and I was never really interested in them growing up. I never had the dream of like riding horses or owning horses.

 

Sharon:            Do you remember that Christmas?

 

Laura:              Yeah, it was a huge shock. And I feel like as a family we didn’t really know how to deal with it, like hear dad say that he wanted to be a mom when we were growing up. But I feel a little conflicted about that because I have a mom. It’s just hard as a kid. I do still think at times that he definitely thought more about his satisfaction and what he wanted instead of like the larger picture of how it will affect his family.

 

Like especially growing up I had a really difficult time and for quite a few years I was really gunning for a divorce and you were too. It just . . . at the time I thought it would’ve been so much easier to grow up and do what I needed to do without having this other person in my life who I was really struggling with.

 

Sharon:            We didn’t want to have to explain to all of our friends what was going on with our dad. We just wanted to blend in with everybody else, but that became increasingly difficult.

 

Trisha:             I started having electrolysis done as one of the first things, zapping every single hair follicle. Then the rhinoplasty, creating more of a feminine nose. Tracheal shape to help take down the protrusion of my Adam’s apple, and then after a while I started taking hormones. I mean can you see that? Can you see that sucker? They wanted this administered deep on the outside of my hips.  I don’t feel depressed. I feel normal. It’s interesting, I feel normal when I’m on the hormones.

 

(22:40)

 

When I bring up this estrogen I feel so much better. My concentration, my being, my body, there is an easiness where I feel calm and it’s like oh, yes, I’m back now. This is where I want to be.

 

Laura:              That was ’93.

 

Sharon:            Oh wow, newborns.

 

Laura:              Yeah. There’s Howard. There’s grandpa and grandma. Aww, this is probably in east Lansing.

 

Sharon:            Long-haired hippie type?

 

Laura:              Yeah, long-haired hippie type. I like this one.

 

Sharon:            And here’s Trish in the blonde years.

 

Laura:              Mm-hmm.

 

(23:45)

 

Sharon:            When you’re in middle school or high school, even if you don’t have a transgender parent you don’t really want anything to do with your parents. Dad was really hands-on. Every time we had a field trip or a school dance dad would be there chaperoning and it was mortifying, the kind of thing where you just want to crawl into a hole or disappear.

 

Laura:              It was really unfortunate timing that you have two young children who are just growing up and trying to find out who they are and their place in the world and then you yourself decide “Okay, this is my time to figure out who I am too.”

 

Sharon:            I dealt with the situation at home by becoming independent as quickly as I could and just really tried to separate myself from needing any help, but Laura was younger so she couldn’t really make that choice.

 

Trisha:             Laura’s in elementary school and what a nightmare that is for her because she has to go through elementary and junior high at a crucial stage where you don’t want to stand out, you don’t want to be different, and what hell I put her through. And I did it blithely and I regret that.

 

Sharon:            You went full-time at a time when Laura and I were so young, and I just feel like I want to know why. What was the impetus?

 

Trisha:             I suppose I was trying to just force myself through to a situation where I had a consistent gender identity. By that time I felt like I couldn’t go back. I was like the genie that got let out of the bottle. When you carry around this feeling that you’re not normal and that something’s not right in your head it’s incredibly depressing and it’s a heavy weight upon your shoulders. You have thoughts that filter through your head where you just feel like this is just never going to end.

 

You can move around a little bit, Sharon. It’s okay. You know it even tapes your voice too if you wanted to say something.

 

Sharon:            I love you, daddy.

 

(26:15)

 

Trisha:             Oh, I love you too. You’re a gem.

 

And I had these two beautiful daughters that I’m sitting here raising and I should be the happiest person in the world but I just wanted to die. And I’d get so depressed that I’d call a suicide line because I don’t know what else to do.

 

Sharon:            So it was literally life or death for you.

 

Trisha:             It was.

 

Sharon:            There’s a painting that my dad did in the ‘80s. It shows a clown staring at the video with these very masculine features, and I didn’t realize until very recently that that’s a self-portrait of my dad as a man. This person dressed as a man feels like they’re living a lie. I didn’t really understand what it felt like to be in the closet until I saw the expression on that clown’s face.

 

I was in fourth grade and dad was in the middle of transitioning when we decided to move with Michigan and that was fraught with stress for all of us. Our neighbors just didn’t know what to make of us.

 

Female 1:        It was very interesting because your dad went through a slow transformation. I’m going to tell you my first memory. I walked by. It was a new house and I’m a pretty nosy person. He started – he frequently wore overalls, and then we started noticing things like jewelry and his hair, wearing his hair differently. He would sometimes walk dressed in his dress and people would yap, yap, yap about that.

 

(28:20)

 

Male 1:            Back then, yeah, if there was somebody new or unfamiliar in town they stood out and you knew it. This woman walked in that I had never seen before. She hung around and had a bowl of soup. I remember talking to her. She seemed like a really interesting person, you know? Every Sunday you guys would come in with your mom. And then one day your dad came in with you, and I’m like wait a minute, you know? I knew it was that woman. I mean I could tell. It was familiar enough, it’s like whoa. And then it gradually occurred to me that this person that sometimes was going around as a woman was coming around with you guys as your dad and then I could ask my friends or whatever and they’d say “Oh yeah, that’s Michael, Michael Shattuck.”

 

Female 1:        Everybody knows everybody and I’m sure everybody in town knows your dad.

 

Trisha:             Oi, there she blows!

 

Female 1:        What’s amazed me too, and I’m going to be very blunt with you, I’m amazed that your parents have maintained such a loving, close relationship from an outsider’s viewpoint. I mean that’s amazing to me. And I also have a hard time with which gender to use. I still want to call Trish Mike, and my husband Dave still calls him Mike. He says “That’s his name. That’s what it’s going to always be.”

 

(30:05)

 

Trisha:             Ultimately I changed my name legally. I was formally Michael Shattuck. I painted a painting and I painted the date of my name change onto the painting so that’s what helps me keep that date in mind.

 

Sharon:            Which painting is it?

 

Trisha:             That is Into the Stubble Before the Storm. The gathering storm and the turbulent clouds behind it, I probably knew that there would be problems.

 

Sharon:            We knew that my dad was going to change names but legally the name change had to be announced in the newspaper. There’s only one newspaper. Everyone in town was going to see it. And I think in our minds the headline was going to be plastered across the front page of the newspaper.

 

Laura:              I didn’t know until that morning that it was going to be in the newspaper. To me that seemed really official and I spent the day in the office. I’m like in the sick room because I was so convinced that when the newspaper would come out, I just thought all this bad stuff was going to happen.

 

Sharon:            My sister came home from school crying one day and she said that her math teacher had pulled her aside after class and said “I know what your dad is doing and I don’t approve.”

 

Female 1:        I think some people were just disgusted. I mean they just couldn’t fathom it. This is a small community and they just thought that it was probably the weirdest thing they’d ever encountered.

 

(32:00)

 

Trisha:             I lost friends. I lost close friends. Neighbors would hustle their kids away and I had two neighbors who moved out of the neighborhood next door. During one surgery where I had my eyebrows grown down I lost a lot of blood and late at night I couldn’t sleep and I’m all bandaged up. I was surprised at how many nurses at the hospital would have nothing to do with me and would not answer my calls because basically it’s like why on earth would a person elect to have these surgeries done? And there is one gay nurse who is the only person who came to help me that night.

 

Sharon:            I was wondering if you could first introduce yourself?

 

BJ:                   My name is BJ Shawn and I used to be your employer. [Laughs] There’s a lot of conservative people here politically but I was brought up with the idea of the golden rule and tolerance and I think one of the things that Trish has provided is an enlightenment about what her struggle has been.

 

You were going through the process of acceptance and my biggest struggle was how to let you know I already knew when you were telling me she was your aunt. [Laughs] And I was saying gosh, I wish you trusted me enough to tell me what was really going on because I cared and I’m the type of person that I don’t care who a person is as long as they’re good.

 

(34:12)

 

Sharon:            I think for a lot of kids of LGBT parents you’re just as much in the closet until you start coming out about your parents. I was on a mission to not tell anyone about my dad. Every time I brought a boy home they would just kind of show up and sometimes Trish would surprise us in a dress and I wouldn’t say anything. And then we’d go out on our date and I just wouldn’t talk about it.

 

When I went away to college I was able to start telling people about my dad on my own terms instead of having everybody in town already know and gossiping about me and that was really liberating. By the time I met John I told him pretty much right away.

 

Sharon:            This is John Eves eating breakfast.

 

John:               Hello.

 

Sharon:            Where are we right now?

 

John:               We are in Maine outside of a campground in Arcadia National Park. This is . . . pointing up is zooming in. Pointing down is zooming out. Come on up.

 

Sharon:            In 2012 we were hiking in Maine and we were at the top of a mountain and he knelt down in front of me with his backpack and he said “Hey, I have a question.”

 

Sharon:            This is where John asked me to marry him just now. See? That’s happening.

 

(36:00)

 

Marsha:           Oh we’re so excited for both of you! I love you!

 

Sharon:            I love you, too. Thank you mom.

 

Trisha:             Hi sweetie. Congratulations.

 

[Trisha and friends playing music]

 

Trisha:             Thank you, Mark. See you another time. Soon. Make it sooner than later.

 

John:               Bye, Sharon.

 

Sharon:            Bye, John.

 

Trisha:             I guess this thing is on. You know, I’m a landscape architect. I graduated with a degree in landscape architecture and one of the reasons why I ultimately chose to do that was because I could plant trees. I grow a lot of little trees and then I put them on people’s lawns. Sometimes I ask them; sometimes I don’t. Here’s one. Then I put a little tag on it. It’s got the type of tree.

 

(38:10)

 

This tree over here was planted from an acorn about 18 years ago. This spruce over here . . .

 

Sharon:            You planted that?

 

Trisha:             That’s one of my babies. Sometimes I’ll put on my reflective, bright orange vest and I’ll grab the wheelbarrow. Okay, do I look sufficiently forestry-like? I know a lot of what this film is about is the transgender lifestyles and me I guess. I’m probably a poor representative of a transgender individual. The way I behave is kind of unpredictable.

 

So I kind of lead two separate lives with the way that I present myself in public. I shift back-and-forth a lot between masculine and feminine, so psychologically I’m kind of in a bind.

 

Taking on the persona of a woman is a lot of work. It’s the slips; it’s the makeups; it’s the nylon; it’s the shoes, and heels hurt my feet.

 

I’m trying to speak a little higher and try to pass yourself off by doing kind of this constrained vocal cord approach where everything just goes higher, and are you going to try to sing in a high voice too and does this feel real? Or am I being just as real as I can be?

 

(40:30)

 

Sometimes people will say “What are you, a man? Are you a woman? What are you?” You ask yourself “Well, aside from being born male, what kind of woman or what kind of a trans woman would I be?”

 

Sharon:            Are you good with you being you, too?

 

Trisha:             You know, what, in terms of my expression? Part of me wants to express more of my femininity and wants to put my dresses and my outfits and my skirts and stuff on periodically, but also my concern has to do with my spouse.

 

Sharon:            How do you feel seeing Trish wearing a dress? I mean does it make you question your identity?

 

Marsha:           Yeah, you do. You’re sort of like okay, I’m in this relationship. I’m attracted to men and my spouse is now looking very feminine and it becomes really confusing, you know? Then who am I? What does that mean to me and my femininity? You just become disoriented.

 

(41:45)

 

You know, the attractions that you have are pretty engrained. It’s not like you can turn it on and off readily. Sometimes . . . I wouldn’t say there’s revulsion, but it’s just kind of like well, I’m not necessarily that attracted to you when you look really, really feminine.

 

Trisha:             I describe it as being on the fence and kind of tiptoeing, doing the tightrope on the top of the fence and one side is male and one side is female and which side are you going to go down on? Because it’s really hard to straddle the fence.

 

[Trisha playing harmonica]

 

Here, I’ll try some high notes.

 

Sharon:            Nice.

 

Trisha:             Laura is doing her best to guide me into stores and trying to help me decide on what it is I’m going to wear at your wedding.

 

Sharon:            Really?

 

Trisha:             Yeah, and she is showing me all sorts of stuff and I have a heck of a time in stores.

 

Sharon:            What kind of stuff is she showing you? I’m curious.

 

Trisha:             It runs the gamut. Sooner or later I have to make the decision about what it is I’m going to be wearing. I’m going to leave it totally up to you because I don’t want to be a distraction. I don’t want to be a topic and it’s whatever you want.

 

(43:45)

 

Sharon:            As much as I hated the idea of my dad wearing a dress to my wedding when I was in middle school, it doesn’t bother me now. I just want her to be happy and I think that what she would really want to wear is a dress.

 

Laura:              Does it say what time like the reception starts?

 

Sharon:            6:00.

 

Marsha:           Whoa, this is going to be a lot of flags.

 

Trisha:             Hold that.

 

Laura:              We’re only going to get these two right here.

 

Marsha:           Right. This is just a test.

 

Laura:              Yeah.

 

Trisha:             This is a test. This is a test from the emergency broadcasting network.

 

Marsha:           No, honey, not . . . [Laughs]

 

Sharon:            She’s very book smart.

 

Trisha:             Whoa, that’s a low blow.

 

Marsha:           I think that was an insult.

 

Sharon:            They look very festive.

 

Trisha:             They do. Wow. Not everything’s going to go right as you plan. Beginning right on the day of your marriage there will be things that arise that you don’t anticipate. Some things will be extremely challenging and will test the bond that you are forging between yourselves.

 

(45:50)

 

Sharon:            For ten years or so when dad was really full-on very feminine I kind of felt like dad was pushing very hard for that and I felt like maybe you didn’t have as much of a voice.

 

Marsha:           Yeah, I would say that that’s probably the truth. I would say that’s probably true. I mean there was a time when I think your dad really considered sex reassignment surgery and all of that, and you know . . . I mean I think there was a part of me that just said “Well, whatever you feel like you really need to do, you need to do it.” I said “I don’t know that I can stay in a relationship in that situation,” and there’s a part of me that just felt really resentful and just like how could you do this? How can you betray our marriage and our family? You know, it felt really very much like that. You know, I’m seriously considering leaving the situation. But I don’t know, I just couldn’t. I just couldn’t leave.

 

We had some . . . definitely we had arguments. We definitely had a lot of tears. We went to various therapists which was unfortunately not very productive. You know, they just didn’t really understand. So it’s kind of like you’re sort of finding your own way and I think we still sort of are finding our own way.

 

Trisha:             You have two cats meeting and you know that there’s about to be a fight and they start circling one another. And all of a sudden they are at it with each other and fur is flying and one of them is going to get hurt or they’re both going to get hurt.

 

(48:00)

 

Marsha had a lot of issues with this trying to live full-time. Initially I thought that I’d probably just go the whole nine yards and have sexual reassignment surgery but I started talking to Marsha and Marsha’s going “No! No! I didn’t marry a woman, I married a man.”

 

Marsha:           You know, I really tried very hard to be more empathetic and say how would I feel? What would it be like for me if I were the one transitioning? How would that be? And I’ve asked your dad that. I said “What would you think if I were the one who transitioned and you were the person who was staying the same? How would that . . . would you be able to handle it?” That was kind of an interesting question because I don’t know that I ever got a real straight answer, like would you stay with me if I were transitioning to a male? And your dad said “Well, probably not.” You know?

 

Sharon:            I don’t know if I could do what my mom did, and I’ve talked to other couples where one person is transitioning and the other one misses their spouse. You know, like misses their husband. Even though the person is still there they don’t have the man anymore.

 

Trisha:             What I should’ve done is probably just gotten a divorce and moved off on my own somewhere.

 

Sharon:            I mean a big question for me is why didn’t you? You could’ve moved away and been yourself and not had to worry about us or mom.

 

Trisha:             If I was without her, if I was cast out from this relationship, I wouldn’t want to survive. I couldn’t see myself living without her.

 

(50:00)

 

Marsha:           And then we’re going to put the mushrooms in here too. Do you think that’s enough?

 

Sharon:            Yeah.

 

Trisha:             I wonder why all these chipmunks are running all over the place.

 

Marsha:           We’ve got to flip them.

 

John:               These are hot. We can’t touch them. I’m smelling burn.

 

Trisha:             Bad smell.

 

Sharon:            Oh shoot.

 

Marsha:           Those are really hot coals.

 

Sharon:            Oh man, this is like charcoal burnt.

 

John:               Yeah, that’s why . . .

 

Trisha:             Horse manure.

 

Sharon:            Everything.

 

Trisha:             No, no, we’re done. We’re done with this. Come on everybody, let’s go out to dinner. I screwed up.

 

Marsha:           Well we’ve got potato salad and couscous.

 

Trisha:             I’m so sorry. I’m so sorry, honey.

 

Sharon:            With all these big issues that we were dealing with as kids it’s strange that we never talked about pronouns as a family. At the time my sister and I didn’t really want to know what Trish preferred because that would’ve meant really coming to terms with her decision, so we didn’t ask.

 

What’s your feeling about the pronouns?

 

(51:50)

 

Trisha:             I would really prefer, you know, feminine pronouns to answer your question. It’s something that I’ve allowed the family to coast on for many, many years waiting for everyone in the family, all of us, to get to the point where you could relate to me as I am.

 

Sharon:            It took me a while to get used to saying “she” when referring to my dad, and it’s difficult because some members of my family still use the wrong pronouns or they don’t use pronouns at all.

 

Laura:              When I was living in Ann Arbor it was my first introduction to people who were transgender besides dad so that really put things in perspective a little more to be able to relate to somebody who was closer to my own age and see their struggles and listen to them. And for these friends who I met I have no problem calling them by their preferred pronouns, but it’s just it’s so different when it’s your own parent.

 

Sharon:            It’s hard because I also asked dad point blank “What would you prefer?” and dad said “I would prefer feminine pronouns.”

 

Laura:              I didn’t really know that actually.

 

Sharon:            Really?

 

Laura:              That there was a preference.

 

Sharon:            Would you just prefer me to go all the way and say Trish and she and not dad?

 

(53:50)

 

Trisha:             Well, there’s the whole . . . I told you girls years ago that dad was always okay. Dad doesn’t really bother me, but I’d prefer feminine pronouns because then that gives me the opportunity to get off the fence.

 

Up in the corner of this painting up here, you know there I am with all this stuff popping out of my head and one of the lenses of my eyeglasses is . . .

 

Sharon:            Cracked or something?

 

Trisha:             You feel that there’s one aspect of your being, your lens, that which you’re perceiving this environment through that’s just not quite right.

 

I am a spiritual person so that’s how I get closer to God. I lose myself in the artwork. And I draw the analogy to giving birth. I’ll never have an opportunity to give birth, but I am capable of giving birth to my artwork. My artwork can stand on its own and then move out into the world and have its own existence.

 

I have always been impressed with this artist’s work. He covers cracks with tar in our neighborhood. Inspiration abounds wherever we go.

 

(56:20)

 

I’m with my walking partner today.

 

Marsha:           Hi.

 

Trisha:             My honey. Marsha’s a trooper. She knows – she sees a slope like this and she goes “Yeah, this is a workout right here.” My guess is that they’re a little tart.

 

Marsha:           Yeah. Tart.

 

Trisha:             Tart. [Laughs] That’s what I thought.

 

Sharon:            When a person changes in a marriage how did you maintain your love and attraction for dad?

 

Marsha:           You just realize there’s this connection and in the end it’s not always something you can just definitely describe. And it’s all sorts of ways. It’s physical. It’s emotional. It’s a spiritual attraction and connection. It’s this inner being that is the attraction and it’s just always there and there’s nothing really that can break it if it’s there for you. And it’s just really comforting to know that there’s that person for you that’s your biggest champion, you know? That that’s the person who at least in our situation has always encouraged me to be the best that I can be. And ultimately I think if you really love someone you have to let them be who they are.

 

Trisha:             Marsha, would you agree that this is one of my favorite places or your favorite places?

 

(58:15)

 

Marsha:           And sometimes there’s something that comes out of nowhere and it’s just so funny and I love that about our relationship. It’s so important to be able to laugh at each other, at yourself.

 

Trisha:             Poof!

 

Marsha:           [Laughs]

 

Trisha:             Not everybody can do that.

 

Marsha:           I think there’s certainly some negative things that people shouldn’t accept in an individual. I mean I wouldn’t accept violence or being diminished in any way by another person. I wouldn’t consider that to be a good relationship. I think ultimately I’m stronger for this relationship and I’m a better person for the relationship.

 

Trisha:             When I came out to her there seemed to be some acceptance of me approaching her in a feminine way.

 

Sharon:            Still? Like you guys are . . .

 

Trisha:             Still.

 

Sharon:            You guys are still intimate?

 

Trisha:             Yes.

 

Sharon:            That’s awesome. Okay, that’s all I want to know about that.

 

Trisha:             [Laughs]

 

Sharon:            Wow, wonderful.

 

Laura:              That’s beautiful.

 

Trisha:             You want me to hold this for you? Yeah, goes well with your hair and your complexion. The beading looks so superb. Doesn’t that look nice? Very ‘30s. It’s got a lot more weight, you know? It’s got that glass, glass and pearl. Nice detail.

 

(1:00:30)

 

A long time ago I bought myself a book on body language that gave all sorts of clues about how people were really thinking when they said yes. When I pulled out a dress that I had purchased for the wedding and I had shown my spouse and she asked “When were you thinking of wearing that?” and I said “Well, I thought maybe the rehearsal dinner.” And I could see a cloud pass over her face and her immediate response was “I don’t want to influence your decision.” She’ll look splendid. You know, sometimes a woman just wants to dance with her husband.

 

It’s an odd psychology, sweetheart. It’s always feeling this nagging need to express your femininity. You may try to fight it. I know I tried to fight it. Boy did I try to fight it. For years I suppressed my persona, and you end up carrying a lot of depression, a lot of sadness if you’re trying to conceal some aspect of your personality.

 

(1:02:40)

 

Male:               Because after the ceremony . . .

 

Marsha:           I’m going to take some more dancing lessons.

 

Trisha:             Here, here.

 

(1:04:35)

 

Minister:         Well good evening. Thank you for coming to share this joyous celebration where we’re about to join John and Sharon in marriage. We are asking you to reflect once more upon the importance of the covenant you are about to make. What you do here binds you together for the whole of your lives.

 

Marsha:           May your marriage bring you all the exquisite excitements a marriage should bring and may life grant you also patience, tolerance, and understanding. If you have quarrels that push you apart, may both of you hope to have good sense enough to take the first step back.

 

Minister:         And so by the authority vested in me by the state of Michigan and the probate court I pronounce you husband and wife and I pronounce to all of you John and Sharon.

 

[Cheering]

 

Sharon:            I wanted you to wear what you wanted to wear, you know? I mean it feels to me like you made a sacrifice at my wedding. I kind of feel a bit sad.

 

(1:06:00)

 

Trisha:             Okay, well let me tell you. When I put on the tux and when Marsha and I were like this side-by-side I felt good. It was okay. And when we were with you that moment and the wedding it was the happiest day of my life so far.

 

Test, test, test, test. Folks, are you having a good time tonight? I want to tell you that even though there’s a lot of work to putting on a good party there’s even more work to putting on a good marriage. And if your marriage is really built on that foundation I spoke of and if you know how to communicate with each other and if you know how to smile your way through arguments and come back and try to work on your differences then you’ll go far. Thank you so much. Thank ya, thank ya, thank ya.

 

[Cheering]

 

Announcer:     I would like to invite Sharon and her daughter to the dance floor for a father/daughter dance.

 

(1:08:05)

 

Trisha:             In my own life on any given day I have a very fluid concept of what my gender presentation may be. As I started meeting women who were mucking out barns, working barefoot in their gardens, getting dirty, I decided there are all different kinds of women. If I’m going mushroom hunting I can throw on some camo and I can slip in and out of attire. Really when it comes right down to it and when you start letting go of preconceptions I feel like a lot of the weight is gone.

 

[Whistling] I’ve got a wet dog. But I’m not saying I’m completely happy, so it’s not like I have resolved my transgender being. I haven’t. I don’t think I ever will. So just kind of take it as it is. Try to get by. [Whistling]

 

Sharon:            Did you just put a burr on her?

 

Trisha:             He’s throwing burrs on . . .

 

Sharon:            When my parents got married I don’t think that they ever imagined how difficult it would be for them to stay together. As a family we’re still working through things. It’s going to be an ongoing conversation and I think that that’s okay.

 

So I was just going to ask you one last thing, if you have any advice, like what are the things that have helped you two stay together?

 

Marsha:           Well I think . . . you know, maybe I was just really selfish. I couldn’t see me without Trish. It’s sort of like deciding between yourselves that your life together is so important, so valuable, that you will do pretty much anything to keep that. And if you have that kind of a commitment there is nothing that you can’t get through.

 

Trisha:             Once you start putting down those years with your mate and they start rolling by with the seasons and you make your ventures and you go out into the world and you put the miles under you, you develop a history. And it’s that history, the shared history and the shared memories that end up stitching together our lives.

 

I feed the cats. I pull the weeds. I fill the birdbath. I take care of little things. She likes to cook. I like to cook. I know that that doesn’t sound like much of a love story but all of these little things amount to what love is.

 

Sharon:            All right, dad. That’s it.

 

Trisha:             Bye-bye folks.